This post is for men. I know you are tired. I can tell you are fed up with constant discussions around what women want. I hear you saying, “What else could women possibly want that they don’t already have?”
Women can vote and go to college, we have the same rights as men, we can have babies or not, marry or not, be independent or not. We can rise through the ranks and even become leaders of our countries if we so chose.
It is very confusing and aggravating for men to watch the many discussions women are having lately, including the ones I personally instigate. Just read the comments.
After the feedback I received for my last couple of articles, I decided it is time to take a look at the male point of view. What follows is based on my observations and my conversations with men.
A man’s point of view can look something like this:
How can it be a man’s fault when a woman chooses to fork her own path and runs into obstacles? There is certainly nobody giving handouts to a man making his way through life. A man lives under a traditional responsibility of being a good provider to his family. It means he can’t give up or show signs of weakness. He must push ahead, protect his family, put a roof over their heads, and provide.
And for the most part, he doesn’t complain about being the provider. It’s just the way it is. In return, all he wants is a little bit of appreciation for busting his chops, and a little bit of love and understanding. Physical attention, a gesture, a sweet look here and there, and he is good to go again. A man also needs time to regroup, recharge, release, and unwind. This he often accomplishes with his buddies and through sports.
A man will ask for help when absolutely necessary—and only when absolutely necessary. He knows his brother’s time is valuable and he doesn’t want to be appear weak. If it can be figured out alone, he’ll figure it out.
Men don’t need much to find their balance; they are more straightforward than women. They avoid complicated issues whenever possible. And when they encounter one, they find a solution through logic and reason, quickly and swiftly.
A former boyfriend said to me that a man’s role is to provide all things non-emotional, and a woman’s role is to provide all things emotional. Simple enough, right? So why can’t we just to follow our innate preferences and everyone be happy?
Men are puzzled as to what women want.
Believe me, I know most men truly and deeply love their women and want them to be happy. That’s why we hear point blank: “What do you want? How can I make you happy?”
Often the vague response women give is: “I don’t know, just not this.” See the problem?
If we women don’t know what makes us happy and can’t articulate our needs clearly to our men, can we even justify our surprise when they become fed up with catering to an ever-evolving set of needs?
We keep asking for more, and many times we get it. So when does a woman’s need for more end? Does she have to turn into one of those masculine women? Will she make man’s life hell on earth throughout the entire pursuit of her happiness?
Men are confused about what to give, how to give, how to act, what to say. They wonder, “Why is this so difficult?” They look for something to blame; something that poisons our minds and thoughts and makes it impossible for women to be content in the ways men are content. So, since it’s beginning they set their sights on feminism because it sounds like trouble. In fact, feminism has been so successfully subverted that even many women believe it is about hating men. Even men who have supported equality in the past are showing signs of feminism fatigue.
If that’s you, please do your research. Feminism simply means gender equality. Without it, very few women would be in the positions we are currently. Let’s not throw our trailblazers under the bus—we should be thanking them. Their fight happened in a different time before we got what we take for granted today. Their fight was equality, ours is balance.
Many men believe that women who talk about equality or leadership balance at home or at work must be man-haters. They think we are poisoning the minds of other women. The worst insult to men is that feminists don’t even think once about how our actions make men feel. In the words of a previous commenter on my article “women want to emasculate men!
I hear you.
Let me give you a few ideas that might help both sides feel less frustrated. Again, let’s be clear that I can’t speak for each and every one of you. There are numerous factors and variations. Not all women feel this way, not all men do either. Here we go (bracing for comment storm again):
Observation 1
- Men are uncertain what women want from them. They want clear communication from women so they can provide us with exactly what we want.
- Women are simply overwhelmed with the demands of the double shift. We don’t know how to communicate what we need because we don’t know. We can’t know. We’ll find out in retrospect what was needed, and we are taught to be independent. Many of us don’t know how to ask for support.
Observation 2
- For generations (and far beyond that), men have grown up with a clearly-defined men’s code and numerous role models to tell them what a man does.
- Women had no Women’s Code (until now!) and there are very few successful role models in our midst who share their know-how. That makes sense once you consider feminism only began 50 years ago.
Observation 3
- Men want to be included in the conversation. Their families, their daughters, and their sons are affected by all these discussions. It only seems logical men should have a say.
- Women want to have our own conversations. We don’t want men to fiddle with issues that are entirely our own. We are smart, we’ll figure it out as we go, and we form an opinion as we go.
Today I am asking you for three things: patience, compassion and permission.
Patience for both sides as we all embark on this journey through waters unknown. Let’s explore together and make it work. It may not be perfect but it doesn’t need to be hostile.
- Compassion for each other as we navigate through the emotionally-charged process of our evolving roles in society. As women’s gender roles change, so do men’s. We are shifting our focus from traditional roles to individual preferences. This is fantastic news.
- Permission for ourselves to not have it all figured out quite yet. We are not defined by our wins, but by how we get up after our falls. Our failures, trials, and tribulations are what help define the roles we want for ourselves.
Let me know what you think of my take on the male perspective and why men are fed up with feminism. Did I hit any nails on the head here?
Actually..I don’t Agree with the Notion that Men were somehow Created to Make Women Happy…No one and Nobody is Talking about how to make Men Happy,the Whole Narrative is just to Satisfy the Wants of A Woman regardless of how Illogical or Irrational they are…Your Article is Still Written with the Entitlement of A Woman..A Man’s Purpose on Earth isn’t to make A Woman Happy
This guy knows what hes talking about. Nobody cares about men unless that man can give them something or provide a service.
Exactly!!!
Sexual objectification dehumanises women.
Male disposability dehumanises men.
One of these is being addressed. Until the other is, this situation won’t change.
I don’t exist to make your life better.
You tell us to man up, and be the men you want us to be. And you come to us with an attitude that even if we do, you owe us nothing.
You say men have no right to tell a woman who she is supposed to be. Quite right.
But then we get”man up”,”act like a man”,”if you were a proper man you would”.
You want patience? Forget it.
I have now decided. MGTOW.
Actually women don’t care what you decide. There is nobody out there running after you wanting to convert you. If this works for you do that. But why do you come here to tell me about it?
This is interesting because the reason many men think this way is because we live in a patriarchy society where men were given gender roles at a young age and also women. However things in the 2020 are different. This is something that will be changing for both genders. It’s about equality that men and women have the same ability to do everything. However let’s be realistic some people don’t want equality because they are stuck in a sexist mentality. Also based on research men / women who are intimidated by feminism are most likely to be abusers in there households. The psychology of them is pretty interesting
100%. It always amazes me when men insist that we should go back to the good old days…. I agree with you that those who are the most outspoken against women who speak their mind are the ones we must watch out for.
Everyone who disagrees with my ideology abuses their spouse. Everyone who disagrees with me doesn’t like equality. I mean if we want to get all narcissistic, poison the well, and start ascribing ulterior motives to people, I could probably play armchair psychologist and start writing you up a diagnosis.
If you didn’t want to convert anyone why the hell did you write this article? If you’re not looking to change minds then you wasted a whole lotta time writing a “lets all just get along” article for nothing.
Those roles were a consequence of men deciding that women are the unpaid slaves who need a provider so the next generation can propagate. Men themselves can’t raise children because they’re too violent so they delegate it to their subjugated women slaves .
In the US now, women make up 64% of breadwinners and still do everything else but although its better than its ever been for men, they’re co-opting our terms to DARVO the subjugated by claiming that acknowledging that we’ve been systematically assaulted, raped and killed by men almost exclusively is tantamount to misandry.
Youd think that all that man-up rhetoric might result in some sense of personal responsibility but like cognitive empathy, its something that is almost impossible for a mans brain to comprehend.
Take women out of the equation in any country and you’ll see it quickly descend into either A. complete shutdown of society as men continue to shirk their responsibilities towards raising the next generation in every manner legally afforded or B. It turns into a violent backwater, poverty stricken shithole like Pakistan.
Why dont you go there or to a similar country thats more in tune with your attitude?
Better for men now than ever before? Exactly how is no due process, having your life ruined in divorce court, spending half of your hard earned money in alimony even when your ex refuses to work, and working 20 billion times harder than my dad did for a quarter of the pay better than ever before? Maybe you should actually dialogue with working class men before spouting nonsense. Not every man lives in luxury and fewer men live in luxury these days than ever before
Excellent comment
Thank you.
If you want us to make you happy, that’s what we want too…. but we are taken aback when nobody is interested in our happiness.
Just because we are willing to take it, doesent mean its right to so joyfully serve it.
In Switzerland (as everywhere in the western world) more and more young men, including me, are not interested in settling down with a women and have children anymore. Why? Very simple: It is the worst deal of your life. When I see a man with a child I feel very sorry for these men – they are nothing but financial and emotional slaves to their women. Apart from that most women became extremely sensitive toward behavior/words/actions they perceive as being “patriarchal” or pejorative in whatever way. The feminist narrative is clear: Men are guilty, men are offenders. And young women believe this crap. Feminism 2020 for me is as fair and balanced as Nazi ideology.
That is certainly your choice to make for yourself. Personally I believe that shutting yourself of love is shutting yourself of life. I never bought the scenario of “all men are like that” and “all women are like that.” But again, that’s what you believe in and I can only hope it makes you happy.
Beate: Some women seem to get equality mixed up with entitlements. Women have more than equal rights under the law. Even before that it is debatable who had it worst. Most men could not vote till women got the vote, and women were not the ones being sent off to work 12 hours a day in a mine etc and being sent off to get slaughtered on a battlefield.
Moderm feminism is divisive, and it concerns itself chiefly with demanding that we go beyond the equal rights that women already have.Like giving someone a job just because they are a woman, and of course non stop man hate. This sense of entitlement extends to dating and relationships.Indeed i have never understood why these women are always pushing this idea that men are all these sex crazed maniacs who are out to get them.
I think this says more about these womens dark fantasies. As in reality experiences with these rabid feminist types, and being subjected to their non stop man hate in the media, is enough to put some men off women altogether. The irony is that if there were a political movement of men who treated women this way, then women everywhere would go nuts.Then of course we have the whole me too circus, where a man can have his career destroyed without any trial or evidence, which is another factor in this.
There are many women who do deserve to be loved and adored by a man. However as far as these rabid feminist types are concerned.They are not entitled to a damn thing from a man. They have made their bed now they can sleep in it… alone. Perhaps you should write a second article about how a woman should cater to a mans needs, if they are to expect the same from him.
Thank you for sharing your sentiments Jonathan. I don’t see men hating, I see a desire to achieve true equality. Equality is not sameness. Most men don’t go and work in mines for 12 hours per day, and most men are not in the military either. The “these women” type of comments show a deep bias and anger toward women. Without feminism no woman would have a job, or get a paycheck, or be able to open a bank account. Feminism has brought great things. I recognize that a lot of the language is interpreted as man hating. Men like winning, so if a woman wins a man automatically assumes he lost. But equality is not a pie. If a woman achieves equal pay, equal opportunity it doesn’t mean that a man gets less or it is diminishing his contributions.
Beate: Nope, i have no more of an issue with being “beaten” by a woman; than by a man. As unlike you’r movement. I see people as individuals who happen to be male or female, and i do not have an inane gender based world view, and a silly men vs women attitude. What i do have an issue with, is the inequality promoted by you’r movement.
I work in tech, and an equally qualified female job applicant, is apparently 3 times more likely to get a job than me. Due to “positive discrimination”. I was also told about 4 years ago. That i would have been the one who received a lucrative promotion.
Were it not for the company i work for, being obsessed with having 50 percent female managers; to fulfill quotas. Sure many women would deserve that job. However Its a joke, having a female manager, who constantly asks everybody questions, and who knows much less about the job than her subordinates. Furthermore, you have to be very callous, to be oblivious to the around the clock man hate; promoted by feminists.
In terms of things like newspaper articles, books, tv, and the mountain of hate on social media etc If feminism was about equal rights, then it would no longer exist. Now it is about demanding we go beyond that.In terms of recieving preferential treatment.
Together with constant reminders from feminists, that you don’t hate men.
While filling the media with non stop man hate. Though i may have had an unpleasant experience with a fairly recent feminist girlfriend. Who seemed great till she became insufferable.
Due to ranting on about “patriarchy” ” mansplaining”. How that gillete commercial was not really sexist etc. I am not angry with women. Rather i am just angry with feminists.
Feminism is also not synonomous with women. In recent uk poll only 7 percent of British women identified as feminist. I guess because they see what i see. In that,it has become a movement of hate and supremacy; its marxist poison.
You only see things from your point of view.
You mean as a woman, single mother, immigrant I have a unique set of experiences that shape my views? Of course I do.
Where is this equality that feminism is fighting for? 80% of the homeless are men, but I’ve never heard feminists raise this as an issue. There is a life expectancy gap of 3.5 years, but I’ve never heard feminists express concern about this. 95% of prisoners are men while 60% of new university grads are women, and I don’t see any feminist protests against this inequity. 90% of workplace deaths and 80% of suicides are men, and still these are not feminist issues. However, feminists have found time to complain about how men sit on public transport.
What does feminism have to do with mental health and men living on the streets? Where is this even related? What does feminism have to do with more men being criminals than women? Michael – your arguments are not just flawed but absolutely laughable. So if I like an orange you are going to throw a temper tantrum because you assume I don’t like bananas?
Love is within a man. A man doesn’t need to “open himself” up to love… for its already within him… women on the other hand do not have love within themselves so naturally they seek men
That is a bunch of nonsense but you are certainly entitled to your opinion if it makes you feel better to put all women done in one big sweep.
Beate, your whole article puts men in one big sweep.
Sorry that you feel this way. What should I have said?
What Eric and Peter just said I agree with you is complete garbage. I honestly have to question their knowledge of basic science and human behavior. I think you did nail the subject quite accurately. Although I would choose to mention the concepts and issues women and men more equally. The way I see it as a human being rather then as a man women and men have overall the same problems and issues, or challenges and obstacles. Being a one leg amputte since 8 years old I have adapted to intellectually and emotionally and physically socialize with people especially since many women and men have difficulty understanding disable people and are afraid to approach us. Because of this I have adopted observation as an important social tool more then I would have if my circumstances were different. As a disabled person I can confidently say the equality gap is very real. Not just between genders in the work place but also in all walks of life for both genders and and the disabled. And not just for one gender but for both. It’s like one injustice from one side provokes an injustice by the other. I believe their is a path forward in overcoming these inequalities but the only way to achieve it is as people not as women and men. As long as we segregate these issues based on and labeling by gender ie male and female, her or him this struggle for equality will continue with no end insight. We need to get there together as people not as women and men. It is true that men don’t exist to please his woman over his own needs, nor do women exist to please their men over their own needs. A partnership is a long term commitment to surrive and prosper together. If one person in a relationship is carring more for their own needs ignoring the other that is not a healthy relationship. We are supposed to encourage each other in our shared goals and dreams as well as our non shared goals and dreams. As people we need to achieve equality together as we would as a couple in a relationship would. If we try to establish eqaul rights as separate genders the quest for equality will fail. We are all part of the human family, we need to start treating each other as such. Family’s thrive best together then alone. This is human nature. We were never meant to go at it alone. Trying to achieve gender equality for one gender first then worry about the other once achieved for the first won’t work.
Beate, if feminism is simply about “equality” then feminists should be concerned about all of the inequalities that Michael Peterson mentioned. But, of course, feminists don’t care about any of these inequalities, because they are in women’s favor. This is why feminism, is not, and has never been, about “equality” even if it is defined as such. What matters is not what feminists say feminism is, but what feminists do, and what they do is promote misandry, plain and simple. Communism too, was defined as “equality” between the classes. Gulags and starvation was not part of the definition, but that’s what we eventually got.
It’s like you eating an apple and me yelling at you that you probably discriminate against oranges because you like apples. While I certainly don’t shy away from a good argument, but this is painful to even read. If you ask me a question and I answer you wouldn’t you actually want to know the answer? Instead you ask me only for you to tell me that I am not telling you what you think I really mean. Does it appear to you as if I minced words? Hey, as long as this makes sense to you…. (hint it really doesn’t).
Yes you can afford to think the way you mention. Its not that he’s “shutting” himself from love, but rather by loving himself, that is, recognizing his own value and worth independent of the validation of codified relationships with women, he can experience an alternative existence than just selling himself cheaply into virtual indentured servitude. The life you define is a life which society, the courts, and feminist ideology doesn’t require recognition of female culpability. Feminist oriented social systems doesn’t hold women owe a particle of responsibility for their occasional bad choices and consequences, therefore the “life” part you mention holds mainly benefits for you and costs for men.
The hatred you see in these comments is self love? Healthy people engage in partnerships and work on their relationship and intimacy. Or they chose to be alone. But why seek a woman to tell her that they want nothing to do with women. What an utter waste of time and energy. Side note, you don’t know anything about me or most women. Speak for yourself, your own choices, and your own experience. Do not project your lack onto me or others. You chose your life. I happen to love mine and the people in it.
As a feminist, I’m sick and tired of men thinking they can just come up to me and ask for a date. Who do they think we are? Just leave us alone for god’s sake. We don’t want your attention. Men need to leave women alone.
Too funny. I leave this just here as it is. I am pretty sure you are not a woman… but by all means go ahead and say what you have to say. No woman I know would say something like this. Being a feminist doesn’t mean you hate men, it means you want equal opportunities and rights. I’ll gladly send you some basic literature.
I didn’t say I hate men. I said they should leave women alone. They don’t have to put with being constantly harassed by women coming on to them. Why do we have to put up with it?
Speak for yourself! Millions of women want to be approached by men!
Being approached by men or being assaulted and/or harassed are two different things. You must not have read this article as it is not at all about that.
Wait, what? Say that again please…. or was that a joke? Or probably sarcasm? I don’t know… did you mean to say that?
What equal opportunities and rights do you not have?
Well i am a woman and i feel the same the way. Most of the time men beg to go out with me and they insist to much for our approval at times, im not saying that it’s always the case. That’s not the way it should be. At times men are to straight forward and they have to respect when a women says no.
There’s not a single man that I know that does not know to take no for an answer. The men you have this experience with are not the majority of the male population. Most men are not creeps. Even my mother who is a feminist and raised me her son a man as a feminist know most men are not creeps.
Agreed. It’s the few bad apples that sour everything.
Single life is starting to look better and better
Several comments and even the article speaks of the poison that has entered feminism of man hating… and yet as soon as an example presents itself your immediate response is it must be a man posing as a woman because no woman thinks that way. It seem to me that you are intentionally blinding yourself to fit your perspective. Most of your comments have been well thought out and on point. But this one showed where you may need to personally reflect.
Kim. I will gladly leave you alone. Me and my mates are getting totally fed up with women. We just can’t be bothered chasing women anymore. And it’s not just women who get harassed. I’ve had women come on to me but I just tell them I’m not interested. Sometimes I tell them I’m gay (I’m not) so they don’t feel so bad about being rejected.
Eric I am pretty sure that “Kim” is not a woman but a man out to bait for controversy. Remember that all relationships fail until the one that doesn’t. And for that to happen you yourself need to do the internal work.
Please stop saying this. This is kind of offensive to the women who share the same feeling and experience.
I don’t know what this is relating to. I am expressing my opinions that you can agree or disagree with.
Ok, but wasn’t the #metoo thing just a big ask by women for men to leave them alone, to stop speaking to them and stop being attracted to them? I know it started in the workplace, but as all things do, it grew into the public domain. Wasn’t it an elaborate campaign to get men to leave them all alone?
You may want to do some research on what #metoo was about. It’s not women who are unclear what they want it is men who reject the idea that they could have possibly done something wrong and are blaming women because they have to alter their behavior. My question to you is – if you have a male friend who makes lewd comments, tries to use his position to get your sister to have sex with him, wants to blackmail your sister into doing sexual favors to advance – why would you not want that person to be held accountable? It’s because it is someone else sister and not yours.
How is it nonsense when you effectively said it in your article Beate? You said women don’t even know what makes them happy and struggle with been content. Been content is happiness. Always feeling like your missing something is not happiness. Especially if you have no idea how to fix it because you don’t know why. Also you totally took what the guy before me wrote and put your spin on it. He didn’t mean men work 12 hours in mines and die in war today. He said before life was comfortable like it has been the last 50 years the majority of jobs going were in mines or in war. So since well paid comfortable jobs have come about now women want to work. When all the jobs were horrible they were quite happy at home. Mansplaining is a funny word and really shows this feminist movement for what it is! easy way out of any discussion just to blame the man on been a emotionally void sexist bully when in reality my whole life it’s the women who lecture! Patriarchy? That’s hilarious because the majority of households I know the woman is the boss. Happy wife happy life and all that! Please name some issues women need “balancing” out? I bet you can’t come up with 5 serious ones while I definitely can for men.
What is your point? Women have had the resemblance of equal rights and opportunities for 50 years. Women had to sue to go into the military, sue to go into private clubs, sue to get equal pay, sue to get equal opportunities, sue to not be treated like a piece of meat, sue to not be harassed. Women are the primary care givers in 95% of the cases, they are the biological gender to give birth. Women do the majority of house and family related tasks. Now women do the majority of homeschooling while running their teams. It’s sad that you don’t or can’t understand or see the inequality but as man presume that you could know what women experience. When you want an answer ask a woman. She will tell you. And instead of ridiculing her or telling her from your male perspective why you think she is wrong, perhaps listening would be more appropriate.
Military: Why did women even want to join the leading force behind male suicide even though they were given the right to vote without the responsibility of having to be drafted?
Private Clubs: Instead of trying to forcefully include yourselves into male clubs, why couldn’t women have started their own clubs or even inclusive clubs?
Equal Pay: This has been debunked and is based on personal choices. Women choose lower paying fields, don’t negotiate pay when hired, leave work for childbearing, and work less hours overall. The study that was quoted even stated that it shouldn’t be used for the purpose that feminists decided to.
Treated like pieces of meat: We are aggressive and forward when we court. It’s generally what has worked. If an attractive, funny, rich, cultured man of your dreams walked up and said something along the lines of wanting you, would you really say no? How about the opposite of that man? One will get a better reception and the other won’t. If the majority of the courting process wasn’t solely on men and if women would be willing to accept some of the rejection, you would see men not take such a direct and hardheaded approach.
Harassment: Shit for both sides, can’t disagree with you on this.
Primary Care Givers: Men aren’t seen as care givers. Both in the eyes of the government and women. Our parenting style doesn’t match up to what women think is right. Where I’m more hands off and want children to learn through doing, most mothers that I’ve dated, my own mother and the ones that I know just nag, argue and offer the standard “because I said so” bullshit. If my children want to light something on fire, I’ll give them the tools and supervision to do so as well as the proper outlet for it.
Gender: Yes, you give birth. You also have the most options to prevent it, most options to take care of an unwanted child by having legal abandonment, have the most to gain from children by having the court at your back in family courts.
House and family tasks: Ever had to change a head gasket on your own car or that of a partner? Ever had to pay the majority of bills in a relationship? It’s not men’s fault that your standards for chores are so high and that you fail to see the actual impact that we can have on a family. I’ve had relationship fall apart because I didn’t load the dishwasher to their standard or that I did my own laundry and didn’t separate my lights and darks. It’s like the pettiest of slights can’t be handled by a modern woman…
Homeschooling: Only the most priveleged women can afford to do that. Imagine not having to work, so hard…
It’s sad that you don’t or can’t understand or see the inequality but as woman presume that you could know what men experience. When you want an answer ask a man. He will tell you. And instead of ridiculing him or telling him from your female perspective why you think he is wrong, perhaps listening would be more appropriate.
Yes, I used your final statement against you. We as people won’t ever get anywhere arguing like we are. Please see this as an option to have a dialogue and not a debate.
That’s a handful to digest, you are bouncing all over the place. You are wrong in many of your observations. All women are homeschooling now, it’s not a question of privilege but necessity. You make so many assumptions about women, what makes you think I don’t pay my bills, own my house, take care of my own car, run my own business? The issue I take with your response is the classic MGTOW response of “all men are this and all women are that.” And that is just not correct. It is your own bias that pushed you in a corner you can’t or don’t want to get out of. I don’t care, it’s not a partnership I would desire or find desirable nor do I want to convince you otherwise. Yo don’t speak for all men. You self selected a group that shares a certain belief system and you are in it because you share that ideology. I disagree with many of the statements of this group because my experience is the other side of this. The lying, irresponsible men taking advantage of women who have their shit together. Instead of acknowledging this experience I am being told over and over again that I am wrong or it is somehow my own fault, that I did this. Just like you just did. You are not using anything against me, you are picking the pieces that fit your narrow narrative.You can do that if that makes you happy or you feel your life is better that way. If you don’t want love or companionship or value it for financial or emotional reasons that is really on you.
Okay you had me until you leaned into statements that are based on biased perspective which didn’t take very long. Ask for your support in young children playing with fire statement as a man I have to question your sanity and as a father I have to question your fitness to be a parent.
This is entirely dependant on which nation you are talking about.
No two nations have identical histories regarding civil rights.
Also, how can you ‘sue’ for amendments to legally binding legislation?
I think you mean campaign or litigate a very specific circumstances that sets a legal precedent
Kim: This is exactly the sort of message that men find so offensive. “I’m identifying as feminists……men should leave us alone”. I’m quite certain that this attitude will be self-fullfilling. Noone will want you with that attitude. It even looks as if you have emotional problems and are completely insensitive to the male half of the species.
Actually – I don’t think Kim is a woman. This has all the makings of a man writing as a woman to incite an argument. I do not know a single woman myself included that would say something like this.
I agree I don’t think Kim is a woman either quite possibly a bitter man trolling the rest of us. As a man I have not known a single woman it was fate such a thing. Regardless of personal issues as people have all the women I have known in my lifetime have been loving and caring and have at least made some effort to understand and relate to the men in their lives even my ex-wife who physically abused me always made an effort to be kind courteous and understanding as I was to her. This Kim doesn’t sound like a woman but definitely a bitter lonely man or quite possibly it’s a bot.
I do get a lot of bitter men who unload here, that’s for sure.
Men have listened and there are indeed leaving women alone….many are going MGTOW. Many just refuse to date at all. Many men won’t even ask women who want a date out because they don’t want their lives ruined by a false accusation of sexual harassment. Many women are complaining about men not even talking to them any more. So, yes men are leaving women alone and women, many high powered career independent ladies, don’t like the lack of attention and being single or unattached all the time. The situation is only getting worse for women who seek marriage and family let alone a viable long term relationship.
From “Men Giving Up On Marriage”
According to this article, men are giving up on marriage. With the divorce laws and feminist movement, many men just don’t feel getting married is worth it. In past generations, men and women knew what their roles were and marriage was simple. The husband worked hard to provide for his family, while the wife stayed home and cared for the home and children. It’s rare to find this anymore.
More women are in higher education and getting careers than men, thus taking the place of men and many men have no work and fail to get into higher educations institutions since the women are taking their place. The same is happening in the job market. More women are taking over the jobs that used to be held by men. “Women are ‘tough and independent’ and men don’t think they’re needed anymore. With feminism pushing them out of their traditional role of breadwinner, protector and provider – and divorce laws increasingly creating a dangerously precarious financial prospect for the men cut loose from marriage – men are simply no longer finding any benefit in it.”
When I ask them why, the answer is always the same: women aren’t women anymore. Feminism which teaches women to think of men as the enemy, has made women ‘angry’ and ‘defensive,’ though often unknowingly. Now the men have nowhere to go. It is precisely this dynamic – women good/men bad – that has destroyed the relationship between the sexes. Yes somehow, men are still to blame when love goes awry. Men are tired,” Venker wrote. “Tired of being told there’s something fundamentally wrong with them. Tired of being told that if women aren’t happy, it’s men’s fault.”
“It’s the women who lose. Not only are they saddled with the consequences of sex, by dismissing male nature, they’re forever seeking a balanced life. The fact is, women need men’s linear career goals – they need men to pick up the slack at the office – in order to live the balanced life they seek.”
Wow! These are powerful words to ponder, women. In seeking to have equality and be like men, we’ve lost femininity and the romance we all so greatly hunger for. Feminism only looks at the short-sighted goals instead of pondering the long-term destruction for society, families and mostly children.
I started reading this article with an open mind. Hoping to take something positive away from it. But unfortunately I conclude that it is not understood by the author that the main issue for men is that they are simply being disrespected and the narrative is still about what women want. There is a huge lack of empathy for men. As a man I can tell you after reading so much negativity about men I am totally fed up with anything that has to do with feminism. The only way to change this is to realise feminism went too far and women have become entitled. And I am sure many women are oblivious to this and are still pushing their feministic standpoints while the men have disconnected already. It is incredibly sad to witness. The world would be such a better place if we would value femininity and masculinity for their differences in stead of trying to equalise everything. I don’t have much faith in the near future.
Women value men, just not male superiority. I’ve learned that it is not easy to understand issues that are non-native. I have had conversation about conversation with men who insist that what women experience is not true. You have to take the experience of a woman by face value – it is her experience. Inequality is a fact. Why? Because men are the ones who are granting equal rights to women. Women cannot give it to themselves. Now we insist that we are equally valuable. This is not an issue of being feminine. I am plenty feminine as are my sisters. Men are entitled to their privilege and when told that they have one they insist that they don’t and fight anyone who says otherwise. Touchy subject. It is sad to hear that you make this about what is in it for you – instead of asking if you are part of the problem making women feel bad because they want what you have had since the day you are born?
Here you are, stating men must accept a woman’s version of her experience at face value, while telling him his lived/observed experience is inaccurate. I see this over and over from women. Men can’t know your experience, but you all believe you know ours.
Thank you for your comment. I am pretty sure I am not stating that a man’s experience is inaccurate. I am stating that for a man to understand the experience of women instead of making assumptions what that is they should ask them and take that at face value. Of course this should go both ways. For women to understand the experience men have we also should ask. What happens most often though is that men tell women that what we experience is wrong. That there is no bias, no inequality even though we experience it all day.
Men are supposed to give women what they want, but they first have to understand that women don’t know what they want. I’m fascinated. How is anyone supposed to provide what you want if you have no idea what it is? And how long are they supposed to wait around while you make up your mind?
I’ve dealt with people who played guessing games, and my conclusion was that the faster you show that person to the door, the more time and energy you’re going to save yourself, because guessing games are in fact power games: the person guessing can’t be right until whenver the game-player decides to let them be — and whether the person playing has a penis or a vagina is irrelevant. If you want something from me, tell me what it is — and if you can’t tell me what it is, go somewhere and suss out what you want: don’t expect me to magically intuit what it is.
I’m what’s now called a first-gen feminist- or so my granddaughter tells me. When I signed on, we wanted women to be treated as intelligent, capable adults because that it was only fair to treat us as what the vast majority of us are. What I hear most now is women demanding special accommodations in every possible area of existence Because Historically Victimized, and anyone who doesn’t agree is labeled a misogynist. We could as easily have been labeled ‘egalitarians’ as ‘feminists’, because we wanted access to social resources not only for ourselves, but for everyone who didn’t have equal access to them. Now we seem to be burbling “Woman good, man bad” as if our brains had shorted out, and then demanding that men solve our problems, e.g. ‘step in’ when some man makes a rude remark. When I signed on, it was to be a ‘self-rescuing Princess’: you just handed back as good as you got and went on your way rejoicing.
I’ve had very few problems with men, in or out of the workplace. I’m civil to them, I recognize that there are drawbacks to their socialization as well as ours, and I do my job and do it well. I’m also straightforward: I assume that if I can’t read minds, no one else can, either, and that if I don’t like being danced around, no one else does, either. I treat other people as if they were sensible adults and I expect them to behave as if they were. If they don’t, I don’t put it down to their genitalia: I put it down to a personal choice and avoid them as much as possible.
Your last statement makes me wonder if you are unaware of or choose to ignore the fact that in this country, class matters far more than sex. I’m afraid that I have difficulty believing that any rational person believes that working-class/poor men have a significant advantage over middle-or upper-class women, especially middle- or upper-class white women. Oh, of course, I know: we’re not supposed to have social classes — but if you really think that income doesn’t determine access, to education and all manner of other social goods, I’d suggest that no one needs to see your picture to realize that you’re white.
FD: I’ve spent some time dealing with women who had their place in the social hierarchy explained to them with oil of vitriol, and it’s left me with very little patience for white Western women wittering about being oppressed.
Your observation 1, makes no mention of bringing something men want to the table just an expectation men can provide women with exactly what they want.
I’ve no interest in pointing out further assumptions or attempting to win an argument. For many modern feminism has taken equality with the masculine whilst keeping the power of the feminine.
As more men take “the red pill” first the’ll be bitter and then and accept their ugly truth and walk away. We no longer be nagged, bullied or shamed into accepting a poor deal.
Those who swallowed their bitter pill long ago do believe in equity not necessarily what is represented as equality and have cheered women’s progress and recognise in some areas there’s still more to be done in some areas. Do not dismiss the inequity of the legal system and recognise male privilege only exists for a small percentage of the population.
The beauty of our fight for social and legislative change is we don’t need to fight this fight as our growing absence will have women fight the Fem-Nazis for us.
While current chorus of feminine voices demand we set up to solve their poor life choices we reply,,, NO
Gary, I am having a very difficult time deciphering what you are trying to say. Are you stating that women need to bring something to the table men want? If that is what you are inferring to it’s very simple. Men want intimacy, connection, sex, and family as much as women do. Your definition of the feminine as a man is at best your perception of what you think the feminine should look like to fit your narrative. WHy don’t you let women define what the feminine is – as they are the feminine. It is simple. You are free to chose a life of celibacy and not be involved with women that’s your choice. That self-selects the men women don’t or shouldn’t want to be with, the men who complain and feel entitled. Women neither need nor should have to please men who mistake equality as a movement against them. It isn’t. Women want equity. That’s it. And if you have a problem with women making the same money men do – then you need to take that up with your own conscience.
“Why don’t you let women define what feminine is?” As if a major pillar of the current feminist movement is NOT an attempt to redefine what masculine means? Why don’t women let men define what masculine is?
I have zero desire to define what masculine is. I do know what toxic masculinity is though. There is a movement by Ray Arata that is Better Man Conference. I leave the definition to people like him.
There’s no such thing as toxic masculitny considering women are capable of the same toxic behavior.
That right there proves his point.
I listen to women all day long define what being a man is, while scoffing at any accountability or issues when it comes to being a women.
Basically all of women’s flaws come back to two things.
“No we dont”
And..
“Its mens fault”
Toxic masculinity is a thing. Look it up. There are bad men and bad women. You know “all women” and you know “all women’s flaws?” You sure seem to get around…
You’re never satisfied. That’s the problem. It’s a continuous moving target.
I believe I stated that men say exactly that. You are just making my point.
Has this thread still open or has it been closed?
The comments remain open. Our team monitors them to avoid spam and hate speech. All comments that are relevant to the subject are approved as long as they follow the guidelines. Mainly no profanity, or personal insults.
Why?
Maybe because:
– current feminism is full of misandy and man-hating content and speechs
– current feminism is full of man-blaming content
– current feminism tolerates misandry and man-hating content/speeches
– men are tired of women not accepting males’ opinions or points of view in feminist topics just because who gives the opinion is a man…
– jut men are also tired of women saying to men how we, men, should act and be
– men are tired of being excluded of public feminist events just for being men, or to suffer violence in those events
– men are tired to be taken as “potential offenders” all the time
This opinion is written respectfully, without any offense. I hope it is not deleted again and published. We are tired too of being censured in these topics.
Thank you.
Welcome to the world of women. We have to listen to jokes and being called a bitch constantly. Our bodies are critiqued and men continue to make decisions over what we can and cannot do. We just want men to stop telling us what to do and they still think they know what is best for us. We are tired of our opinion being diminished only to have a man take credit for it. We had to literally sue for access to things like the military, flying a plane, driving a car, and voting. We have been called witches and been burned on a stick. Women are tired of men thinking that we are fair game for them even when we said no, are married or attached.
Is it possible that you only think about yourself and not what patriarchy has done to women? Now that so many of us want to be treated equally men are once again turning it against women as if we are asking for something outrageous. We are not out to get you, we just want to be treated with respect and as an equal.
I did roll my eyes with your last line of your previous comment having been deleted or censured. This website is run by the Women’s Code. We are attacked regularly for (gasp) asking for equality for all. We simply monitor comments for language and vulgarity and threats. And sometimes it takes us a few days to approve comments. I get your point, but this victim stuff is so… 1980s. What problem can you possibly have with women being treated as equals? What problem can you possibly have with women not wanting you to lust over them, stare at my 20 something year old daughter or tell her you’d like to “do her.” What problem can you possibly have to want men who sexual assault women to be brought to justice and put into jail? I am also not aware of any feminist event (I assume you mean when women get together…) and being violent to men. Please share such an event as that is news to me.
Thank you Ms. Beate for your response.
I thought this article was about to “why men are fed up with feminism”, to receive inputs from a male’s perspective, to take such inputs into account in the thinking and development of feminism. I thought about a real interest in listening to the men’s opinion about the topic. But reading your responses here, it seems just an unconditional defense of feminism, and that’s all. I did not see from your part any acknowledge of something wrong into feminism, nothing, it seems all is perfect within the movement.
Regarding your response:
– “We just want men to stop telling us what to do and they still think they know what is best for us”. R: So, no suggestions allowed anymore. Funny, cause I’m tired of reading about women telling men what to do to be better men, and what is best for men.
– “Is it possible that you only think about yourself and not what patriarchy has done to women?” R: Sure, indeed I think about it a lot, and ofc there are still many things to be changed in this respect.
– “We are not out to get you, we just want to be treated with respect and as an equal”. R: I mean, I never said the opposite. I cannot disagree with that purpose.
– “What problem can you possibly have with women being treated as equals? What problem can you possibly have with women not wanting you to lust over them, stare at my 20 something year old daughter or tell her you’d like to “do her.” What problem can you possibly have to want men who sexual assault women to be brought to justice and put into jail?” R: Any problem, but, why these questions? Why are you assuming that I could have a problem in this respect? I never said a thing about this in my comment.
– “I am also not aware of any feminist event (I assume you mean when women get together…) and being violent to men. Please share such an event as that is news to me.” R: Sure, quite easy. Here in some South American countries, some men who attended to the last March 8th walks suffered verbal and physical violence from feminists. Even when such men were walking together with their girlfriends or other women. Even more: there is a video on youtube and twitter of a father and his little kid in bicycle being intimidated by feminists and forced to change their way. I can share the link if needed.
Oh, regarding misandry and man-hating into feminism, it only takes to write “misandry” in the search bar of twitter to find thousand of profiles of feminists who proudly identify themselves as “misandrist”. Also, you can try “kill all men” in the same search bar to find uncountable tweets with misandry, the vast majority of them coming from women who identify themselves as feminists.
Please, I encourage you to do the exercise. Seriously you are not aware of such things that are happening today?
Maybe these things, among others, are some of the reasons why men are fed up with (current) feminism. Fed up also seeing that most feminists are not even open to see these things as a problem within the movement, to acknowledge the outrages of some wings, and to have a real and serious discussion about it.
I thought this article was a resource to have such a discussion, but I found that is just another defense of feminism by a feminist.
Thanks for the time.
Dear Beate,
Without prejudice and in addition to the above, I recommend you the reading of this article, written by a feminist woman and published in the Washington Post:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/%3foutputType=amp
“Feminism treat men badly”.
Maybe such reading helps you to back to the current reality – at least, for some brief moments – and discovers several things that we, men, must face and tolerate today with the current feminism. Of course, this is in case you are really interested in know (and accept) the reasons why men are fed up with this new f
-“Yet a lot of feminist rhetoric today does cross the line from attacks on sexism into attacks on men, with a strong focus on personal behavior: the way they talk, the way they approach relationships, even the way they sit on public transit. Male faults are stated as sweeping condemnations; objecting to such generalizations is taken as a sign of complicity. Meanwhile, similar indictments of women would be considered grossly misogynistic”
-Whatever the reasons for the current cycle of misandry — yes, that’s a word, derided but also adopted for ironic use by many feminists — its existence is quite real. Consider, for example, the number of neologisms that use “man” as a derogatory prefix and that have entered everyday media language: “mansplaining,” “manspreading” and “manterrupting.” Are these primarily male behaviors that justify the gender-specific terms? Not necessarily: The study that is cited as evidence of excessive male interruption of women actually found that the most frequent interrupting is female-on-female (“femterrupting”?).
– “Sitting with legs apart may be a guy thing, but there is plenty of visual documentation of women hogging extra space on public transit with purses, shopping bags and feet on seats. As for “mansplaining,” these days it seems to mean little more than a man making an argument a woman dislikes. Slate correspondent Dahlia Lithwick has admitted using the term to “dismiss anything said by men” in debates about Hillary Clinton. And the day after Clinton claimed the Democratic presidential nomination, political analyst David Axelrod was slammed as a “mansplainer” on Twitter for his observation that it’s a measure of our country’s “great progress” that “many younger women find the nomination of a woman unremarkable.”
-“Things have gotten to a point where casual low-level male-bashing is a constant white noise in the hip progressive online media. Take a recent piece on Broadly, the women’s section of Vice, titled, “Men Are Creepy, New Study Confirms” — promoted with a Vice Facebook post that said: “Are you a man? You’re probably a creep.” The actual study found something very different: that both men and women overwhelmingly think someone described as “creepy” is more likely to be male. If a study had found that a negative trait was widely associated with women (or gays or Muslims), surely this would have been reported as deplorable stereotyping, not confirmation of reality”.
-“This matters, and not just because it can make men less sympathetic to the problems women face. At a time when we constantly hear that womanpower is triumphant and “the end of men” — or at least of traditional manhood — is nigh, men face some real problems of their own. Women are now earning about 60 percent of college degrees; male college enrollment after high school has stalled at 61 percent since 1994, even as female enrollment has risen from 63 percent to 71 percent. Predominantly male blue-collar jobs are on the decline, and the rise of single motherhood has left many men disconnected from family life. The old model of marriage and fatherhood has been declared obsolete, but new ideals remain elusive”.
– “Perhaps mocking and berating men is not the way to show that the feminist revolution is about equality and that they have a stake in the new game. The message that feminism can help men, too — by placing equal value on their role as parents or by encouraging better mental health care and reducing male suicide — is undercut by gender warriors like Australian pundit Clementine Ford, whose “ironic misandry” often seems entirely non-ironic and who has angrily insisted that feminism stands only for women. Gibes about “male tears” — for instance, on a T-shirt sported by writer Jessica Valenti in a photo taunting her detractors — seem particularly unfortunate if feminists are serious about challenging the stereotype of the stoic, pain-suppressing male. Dismissing concerns about wrongful accusations of rape with a snarky “What about the menz” is not a great way to show that women’s liberation does not infringe on men’s civil rights. And telling men that their proper role in the movement for gender equality is to listen to women and patiently endure anti-male slams is not the best way to win support”.
eminism.
To make it easy, here are some quotes:
“As this campaign shows, our fractured culture is badly in need of healing — from the gender wars as well as other divisions. To be a part of this healing, feminism must include men, not just as supportive allies but as partners, with an equal voice and equal humanity”.
See? It is possible to be a feminist while recognizing the problems and outrages of feminism.
Thank you.
If I were to take extremists on both sides -toxic masculinity and men hating feminists I would arrive at what you are describing. It’s just not the reality. Most men want to be inclusive but don’t know how and are painfully unaware of their privilege, and most women love men but need them to acknowledge the injustice we’ve lived in as long as we have. Men had to grant rights for women. That’s not equal, that’s a fight we had to have because men were not going to give equality to women because they couldn’t even imagine that women weren’t happy being treated inferior. So if you ask is there anger and resentment from women about this attitude that you in these arguments still defend as unfair treatment toward men – you are correct. Yet I ask you – what is your point?
For myself I focus on the positive and education. I leave the bashing and the generalization of “what all feminists do” to men who need villains to make themselves feel better about failing in their relationships and intimacy. It’s always easier to blame someone instead of taking responsibility. Healing comes from acknowledging ones part through active listening and taking responsibility for intentional and unintentional transgressions. That is where we start, that is why I founded the Women’s Code to establish the equivalent on the other side. You won’t find much men bashing here, but data that shows the injustice. If that is bashing to you – you need to ask yourself why the data bothers you so much when it is what it is. That’s on you.
I think I know where you are coming from. These conversations are always the same. Angry women this, angry women that. I am not the slightest bit angry. You simply can’t take the term feminism and make all these blanket judgements about all women. And hardly all men think like you either.
Have you looked up the definition of the term, what it actually stands for? Then compare it to what men are doing with it. It doesn’t have anything to do with the original objective or meaning of the term. Feminism means equal rights. There is absolutely no problem and there shouldn’t be a problem with women wanting equal rights. Why this bothers you or any man so much is beside me. Do you tell your daughters that they are less than your sons?
If the Women’s Code would be a man hating, man bashing site that even remotely encourages or promotes some of the things you are accusing feminist off… fine we can battle it out. But it’s not. I am a feminist. I am a mother. I am a business owner. Very, very, very few women define themselves in opposition to men, it’s just not our priority or obsession to prove anything. Most of us just don’t have even the time, we have bigger things to slay. You can get sidetracked in the 1% of feminists that act the way you describe, then find a website that has content you can argue about. The objective of my article is for you to think about on whether or not you are making blanket judgements about feminism. I think I made that point, didn’t I?
Dear Beate,
Thanks for your responses.
Two more responses from your side and ANY critique on current feminism. ANY. 0. All is working perfectly and therefore men who are fed up with feminism are just seeking ghosts or “villains to make themselves feel better about failing in their relationships and intimacy” (such a generalization…).
I provided to you an article written by a feminist in 2006 pointing out some outrages of the current feminism towards men. Yes, Beate, those things of 2006 are still the same hapenning in 2020: men-blaming, men-hating, women telling men how to be men (but, ofc, don’t accepting the same from men).
I’m not inventing anything. A quick trip for social networks is sufficient to see this. I’m sure you are a smart woman, so sadly I have to think that you merely don’t want to accept the reality, or even more, don’t want even to discuss this reality we men are been tolerating since many years.
Why you published an article about “Why men are fed up with feminism” and asked males’ opinions if then you are not open then to accept such opinions or at least be not judgemental about them? In all the responses here you didn’t accept ANY single opinion from male’s side. If the purpose of this article is to defend unconditionalñy fekinism, then change the name of the article or just invite your feminist friend to the discusion and that’ all. It would be more honest.
Last but not least:
– It’s always easier to blame someone instead of taking responsibility. R: yes, actually I think the same about many men-blaming feminism statements these times.
– If the Women’s Code would be a man hating, man bashing site that even remotely encourages or promotes some of the things you are accusing feminist off… fine we can battle it out. But it’s not. I am a feminist. I am a mother. I am a business owner. Very, very, very few women define themselves in opposition to men, it’s just not our priority or obsession to prove anything. R: the Women’s Code doesn’t comprehen all the feminism, does it? In the same way, your personal experience or the experience or those “very very very few women” is not necessarily representative of the reality. What I see everyday new day is thousands of misandrist tweets or post in Twitter and IG from women who identifie themselves as feminists, showing proudly a disgusting misandry which is not banned or removed in any way from such platforms. Men-hating and misandry is not a problem today, is tolerated… even more, is supported and a “positive remark” hundred thousand women are including in their bios. This is happening now in real life, dear Beate. Take a look, if you don’t believe.
–
Why this bothers you or any man so much is beside me. Do you tell your daughters that they are less than your sons? R: I see you keep doing unnecessary assumptions. Im not against gender equality. You are trying to change the focus of the conversation. Ohh, I have a little daughter and she is my entire life!. Be sure that I would never tell her such a thing. But I definitely gonna tell her that men are not an enemy, that men are not all “potential rapists” (as some feminist academics are teaching today wordlwide), that not all men are bad fathers, that not all men are abusers, that there are only men and not “menz”, and that all of us deserve respect, not only woman.
Again, I encourage you to read (or re-read) the article I sent you written by a FEMINIST WOMAN. I think, like her, that men-blaming, men-hating and just the advice of “just listen patiently while we, women, say awful things about men – hey, but don’t take it so personal – is not the best way to achieve gender equality and mutual respect.
Thanks again for your time and opinions. Best.
Honestly. Feminism MUST die in order for both genders to move forward. Fourth wave Toxic Feminism must be destroyed.
– if feminism is about equality why are feminists not fighting for men to be removed from the draft list? OR why do feminists fight to prevent woman from being drafted into wars?
– if feminism is about equality – why do men receive higher sentences for the same crimes? And why are feminists not fighting to reduce violence in male prisons to same level of violence as woman’s prisons?
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminists not fighting to stop baby boys from being circumcised without anesthesia at 80% of the male population in the US?
– if feminism is about equality – why do they cherry pick equal gender distribution of CEO jobs and not fight to have equal gender distribution for roofing or crab fishing or other dangerous jobs?
– if feminism is about equality – why is there no men shelters even though studies show domestic violence is 40% female on male. Why do feminists ignore these statistics?
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminist not fighting for young boys who are falling behind in post secondary and primary education? 70-80% of college graduates are now woman.
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminist not arguing for affirmative action and more incentives to increase male teachers in class rooms? Don’t you want equality in schools?
– if feminism is about equality – why does feminism deny men proper judicial procedures in college rape tribunals and automatically “believe all women”. When it has been proven many times women lie and very few consequences when they are caught lying? Shouldn’t those boys also have a voice and get justice?
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminist not fighting to decrease suicides rates among men so that it’s equal to women?
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminist not fighting to reduce male work related deaths to the same proportion as women?
– if feminism is about equality – why don’t feminist include “risk pay” or “hours worked” or the fact woman chose or prefer part time work in the “wage gap” metric? Or the fact that men are biologically different and are attracted to highly competitive and demanding careers? Why do feminists skew the statistics?
– if feminism is about equality – why don’t feminists compare wages within specific careers ( private vs. public) and / or compare wages within specific organisations, where men also have wage discrepancies between each other. Why not include this in the metric?
– if feminism is about equality – why don’t they include “spending” in the wage gap metric. Even though a man might make more, woman spend more of the money in the household.
– if feminism is about equality – why do feminists bash other woman ( Cassie Jaye) who have valid critiques or have a difference of opinion within feminism?
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminists not fighting for men who pay child support even though they are not the fathers? (paternity fraud).
– if feminism is about equality why are feminists not fighting to increase male life expectancy to same level as woman? Should men not get paid more if they live less long and healthy lives as women?
– if feminism is about equality why do woman make men drive the majority of the time when we are in cars together?
– if feminism is about equality why do feminists shame “creepy” men for hitting on 18+ years old girls, but when an older woman does “it’s cute” and “good for her go get it girl”?
– if feminism is about equality – why did they not cancel culture Asia Argento for statutory raping an underage boy that she knew since he was 8yo? Why does she get a free pass and no jail sentence? Why are the feminists not screaming injustice!
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminists not discouraged from using misandry and hateful language towards men? Why is it just laughed at by feminists when men complain?
– if feminism is about equality – why do feminists celebrate diversity in woman’s bodies but still openly discriminate / shame short men and guys with small penises?
– if feminism is about equality – why are feminists not fighting to get equality in homelessness? 70% of all homeless are men.
– if being a woman is so much harder. Then why do men kill themselves at a 3X higher rate? And why is this not a feminist issue? It sure would be a huge deal if it was the other way around!
I could spend a whole day writing about the hypocrisy of the feminist movement and I’m left wing. I’m as far left as you can possibly go, and I despise this fourth wave of feminism with every cell in my body. All this last wave of feminism has done is divide the sexes / population and reduce solidarity among its citizens.
You as a feminist journalist make money off these gender wars and you are part of the problem, because demonizing men gets you traffic and makes you money. Why don’t you start reducing inequality by quitting your job writing these articles and go work on a crab fishing boat in Alaska. Then you will have men’s ears and respect.
Men are waking up, and if you think the debate is going to continue around women’s issues and the “patriarchy” you are gravely mistaken. Men are fed up and we will rise up against your hatred towards us. Men will not stand for this anymore.
No one believes that feminism is about equality, not even most women believe it anymore.
So I assume you agree? Feminism isn’t about equality. Why have you not responded to any points if your whole premise is equality? I see you responded below to another person.Here is another point for you since you believe feminism is about “equality”.
https://grow.google/womenled/
When you now search Google, they have an attribute called “Woman-Led” that shows up in Google search results and has the potential for gender bias when customers are picking a vendor. Yet no such thing exists for “Male-Led”. Do you really believe feminism is about equality? Should we really have gender as a factor? Is this bringing the sexes together?
Do you want to know the truth? Forth wave Feminism’s unknown / undisclosed purpose is to reduce solidarity among citizens. Gender / Race / LBGHTQ issues mostly derive from class war. By having radical feminists and MRA’s fighting, it distracts from the true origins of inequality which are economic and class. It pits gender warriors energy against each other, while elites sit back and watch us fight each other. They could care less about “equality”. Identity politics divides populations into groups which can than be more easily controlled, distracted and channel their LEGITIMATE rage and issues against each other. It’s a form of social engineering, just like Trump successfully exploited race AND gender to get elected. Pitting whites against the Latinos and African Americans, and men vs. woman (look at how men voted last election). Forth wave feminism purpose is to ensure those gender warriors (men and woman) channel their grievances towards each other. The true origins of inequality which are class and economic – money IS power (Citizens United).
I’m not saying woman aren’t disadvantage. Inequality has always existed for woman, but also in different ways for men. The true battle is class warfare, and is not about pitting one gender against another. If you really want equality, than take a look at our economic system where rich people pay less tax than you while you sit their promoting an ideology that destroys all of us.
100% agree.
This web is funny cause instead of being a place to openly receive males’ perspectives or points of view on feminism it is just another defense of feminism no matter what.
This lady is not interested in recognizing problems within feminism, questioning such problems, etc. All are man fault, we are so dumb for not appreciating how good feminism for us! LOL.
This is not serious, but well, feminism is not serious so I’m not suprised.
You may want to actually READ the article the ‘lady’ wrote.
Beate,
I did.
If you see above, we had an exchange and that’s why I’m telling this: you are not open to any critique on feminism, you are not open to the male’s opinion, actually you are not interested in our opinions as males.
This article is not about knowing why us – MEN – are fed up with feminism. This article is only for you defending feminism no matter what. That’s all.
Do you want to know why men are fed up with feminism? You have here plenty of males telling you plenty of reason, but you are ignoring all the points, changing the focus of the discussion when there is a valid complaint about feminism, bla bla bla.
That’s not a true discussion, sorry lady.
Anyway, thanks for the space.
Ralph, I appreciate your tenacity. Let’s start at the basics. What is the definition of feminism to you? Because the definition and the interpretations can be very far apart. I am a conservative when it comes to it and stick with the basic definition of equal rights and equal opportunity and equal pay. I cannot speak to the interpretation of feminism that others have. Your frustration could be that I can’t give you an argument on an interpretation that isn’t mine. The video is pretty straight forward. I cannot, nor do I want to cover grievances men have who have invented a feminism that they perceive exists. I neither know what that exactly is, nor do I share the view. You do understand though that I cannot argue viewpoints I don’t have? So back the basics. If your and my interpretation of feminism is not the same we can never have a meaningful conversation. Your viewpoint is reverse discrimination against men (numbers show it is not so), man hating women (I don’t know any), divorce court advantages for women (the numbers proof this incorrect) and on and on we go. No matter which data I cite men who use feminism as their scape goat seek me out to argue because they can’t figure out what went wrong in their relationships or families. The third party blamer is a technique that works well for unaware people. A playbook Trump uses, you see it in action every day. Blame something so it’s not you. I am actually on your side, working on the unification portion of things. Feminism isn’t to blame why you are angry with women. Your awareness and skillset is.
I think you made your point about why you are fed up about feminism. What else do you wish to achieve other than sharing how you feel about it? I have now said this ten times. I cannot argue with you over something that is not my belief. If you object against the fourth wave of feminism you need to go to women who are what you object against and tell them. I am a little lost here.
Beate,
First of all, I share such a definition of feminism: equal rights, equal opportunities, equal responsibilities. I think nobody could disagree with that.
Unfortunately – I think you are aware of this, but just in case – there is no one single feminism but many feminisms, and some wings of the feminist movement are not based on such definition. Particularly, 4th wave feminism is not about equality, is about a battle of genders, men-blaming, men-hating.
You don’t know any men-hating woman Beate. Lucky you! But, believe that they are out there – you can find them very easily on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and other networks -. And I’m not talking about teenagers, I’m talking about mature women, women at NGOs, activists, etc.
In short: if you want to believe that everything is perfect within feminism and you are happy with that, fine! But don’t pretend that we, men, who read shit every day about our entire gender throughout all the internet share your enthusiasm.
Finally, I invite you to read this article written by a feminist. Even when she shares your basic concept, fortunately, she is not so blind however to deny that current feminism is full of men-blaming, men-hating and unfair speech about our entire gender.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/
And know what? This is the main reason WHY MEN ARE FED UP WITH FEMINISM.
There is your response, take it, or leave it.
See ya.
Read the article, it really doesn’t say much about anything. The author goes and says it’s unfair but the examples are weak. For my part I believe most men and women are good. The system was built by men for men. Men let women in – willingly and not so willingly. Women had to sue for access to everything. Now we are 60 years into women’s lib compared to men’s ruling of thousands of years. And men are fed up because it’s not like it was. I get it Ralph. So let’s agree that SOME men are absolute pigs like Weinstein, Epstein and that entire set of powerful men who take what they want. They give ALL men a bad reputation when OTHER men don’t speak out or up. And we saw how this went. SOME women are outright bitches. Never happy, demanding, entitled princesses who want what they want when they want it. That’s the extreme. So let’s get into the middle. Now we say not ALL men and not ALL women are like that. MOST want to get along. What can we do? I find this approach a lot more productive than this Google search so that I share links with you of people who agree with me to proof you wrong. Men are fed up with women hijacking feminism. Real men support feminism. Women are fed up with men constantly telling them that they have no issues or that we live in an equitable society. Real women still love their men (if that is their sexual preference.) That’s really where we are. That’s our baseline.
Hey Ralph,
Thanks for engaging.
After reading Beate’s response, I think your assesment was correct – that she doesn’t seem to understand what forth wave femminism has become.
It’s the loudest, biggest / extreme voices that get the news traffic, funding and attention. It seems to have just become another form of group competition, where your tribes funding depends on creating never ending issues between your oponent (men). The louder you scream, the more recognition. Meanwhile more reasonable voices are pushed aside, and most woman sit silent as all these unequal femminist policies are benefitting them indirectly and often harming men.
To quote Beate from her own response to you:
” That’s the extreme. So let’s get into the middle. Now we say not ALL men and not ALL women are like that. MOST want to get along.”
Beate, trust me – men are dying (literally) waiting for the leaders of femminism to “get into the middle”.
I must admit, I’m impressed with the psycholgy of women. It makes total strategic sense to always play the victim card towards men who are generally socialized to protect woman. It’s like they are using our evolutionary biology against us! 🙂
Victim card? Do I look like I am victim? Seems between the two of us the role of the victim is not with me. What exactly are you fighting for? What do you hope to achieve?
Class warfare is not the topic of this article. I do not get into socio economic theories in my work. I look at gender and minorities, D&I and equity.
Hi Beate,
Thank you for responding. I don’t mean to come off as triggered, it just gets very frustrating when femminists claim the movement is about “equality”. But when you look at the actualy implemented policies promoted by various femminist organizations, it’s always ONLY related to female issues and often includes anti male rhetoric / policies.
If you have any examples of femminist organizations or institutions that are working on men’s issues like male suicide, boys left behind (schooling), male circumcision, longer judicial sentencing, shorter male life expectency, paternity fraud, false rape accustations, workplace deaths etc. I’m open to read ANY article you can share showing femminists (male or female femminsts) working on these issues, or any other matter specifically related ONLY to men. Of course all in the spirit of acheiving equality.
For example:
The National Cancer Institute spends twice as much funding research on breast cancer than it does on prostate cancer; the National Institutes of health spends almost three times more ($700 million, to prostate cancer’s $250 million). Even though prostate cancer kills more people than breast cancer. Could you imagine the uproar if we reversed the genders above? Femminists would be screaming inequality and blaming the “patriarchy”.
https://yorkshirecancerresearch.org.uk/news/behind-the-headlines-prostate-cancer-now-kills-more-people-than-breast-cancer
In my opinion, the link below is an example of what femminism should truly strive for. Just like you, I believe in equality. Just not the the “forth wave feminist” version, which any person with a slightest common sense can see is biased and seems to have an agenda that is further dividing the sexes.
Would love to hear your thoughts on the video below.
Thank you, and I appreciate that you are attempting to engage on such a controversial and loaded topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyqG-71zOi0&ab_channel=FilmsForAction
Hey Beate,
Have you watched the “Red Pill” movie by Cassie Jaye?
It’s the real driving force behind the MRA movement. If you are truly interested in this issue, you should probably watch it to fully understand men’s rights issues and grievances in regards to feminism.
I did find this comment of yours actually a little disturbing, and somewhat of an absolutist / arrogant mindset.
” I cannot, nor do I want to cover grievances men have who have invented a feminism that they perceive exists. I neither know what that exactly is, nor do I share the view.”
Who says YOUR “invented” version of feminism is correct? Why are you writing off their grievances as irrelevant just because it doesn’t match your views? Is that not the whole point of this thread? – To be willing to listen and hear men’s opinions on feminism?
And you simply write it off as perceived grievances without actually addressing any of the arguments? Just writing it off as incorrect perception even though indisputable facts are presented. Don’t you want to know if the arguments being made are valid / false?
I’m sorry, but that is a total cop-out. Ralph is correct about your responses so far.
” You have here plenty of males telling you plenty of reasons, but you are ignoring all the points, changing the focus of the discussion when there is a valid complaint about feminism, bla bla bla.”
I do honestly appreciate that you are discussing this topic, but feel your responses have been somewhat disingenuous and short.
That’s okay. You seek an argument for the sake of having an argument. I can’t discuss what I don’t experience. Nor is it my view of the world or the reality in which I live. The definition of feminism is pretty clear, the interpretations plentiful. Knock yourself out, it’s an utter waste of time because it leads to nothing.
A less wordy comment Beate. I assume you use “equality” and “equity” as separate terms.
Equality (of opportunity) is a support of meritocracy. Such a system accepts ALL applicants, and then sorts them into the best, the also valuable, the barely usable, and the generally useless. I firmly believe everyone should get a fair shot. Let’s see what you’ve got, not what you look like. (Thanks MLK)
But equity in the current sense is a code word for redistributive COMMUNISM (which always fails, no matter how smart you think you are, because it ignores natural law). Just give everyone what they should want, regardless of where it comes from or how it happens. It is college speak for wholesale theft. A society based on immorality will fail because those that behave as they should are punished and those that misbehave are rewarded. You can’t have what you want just because you want it. It is in a word unethical.
I am actually impressed by the one thing I notice you have a firm grasp on (note how very carefully I have worded this). Some men have rights because they… have them. Others are basically not in a position to oppose them. Most men have some rights now in the West because history was molded by a few amazing men that granted these more numerous men the recognition of their rights that they could not claim for themselves. And then women were added by petition of the Suffragettes; leaders of Classical Feminism. 10,000 years of human chattel for 99% of humanity. Small freedom sparks in Greece & Rome 1000’s of years ago. 200 years of theoretical freedom for men in America. 100 years of theoretical freedom for women in America. NOT granted – but RECOGNIZED.
You are not in a position to seize anything as a typical man or woman. You have to use agents to do it for you. But there is a path to actual fairness as opposed to ever escalating demands. And remember the training you realize women have not received en masse since their emancipation? Ethics.
Beate you and everyone like you is being used to usher in a world order of permanent serfdom perpetuated by technical imprisonment. You say you don’t get into Class, Economics, Politics? I think you should…
Hey Beate,
I just wanted to clarify something. You wrote the following in your article and comment section:
You wrote – “Feminism simply means gender equality. Without it, very few women would be in the positions we are currently.”
You wrote – “Feminism means equal rights. There is absolutely no problem and there shouldn’t be a problem with women wanting equal rights. ”
You wrote – “You do understand though that I cannot argue viewpoints I don’t have? So back the basics. If your and my interpretation of feminism is not the same we can never have a meaningful conversation.”
However, I AM using YOUR interpretation of feminism meaning “gender equality” / “equal rights”! I provided you with 22 examples of inequality that specifically affect men, and you just write it off as “viewpoints I don’t have”? But that’s YOUR feminist viewpoint! lol :). That feminism is about gender equality!!!! That’s what all the feminist say – “It’s about equality”. But who are they / you referring too? Just women or both sexes?
So if you could please clarify the following – What is your “version” of feminism?
– Does feminism mean gender equality / equal rights for issues that ONLY affect women?
OR
– Does feminism mean gender equality / equal rights for all issues (gender specific AND mutual issues) that affect BOTH sexes?
Because if your definition is that feminism is equal rights for both sexes. Then I ask you – shouldn’t feminists (male and female) be working to fix men’s issues as well? Can you then please respond to the 22 points of male inequality, since we are in agreement and using the same definition of feminism? And why are these inequalities not being addressed by feminist movement?
And, If feminism only represents gender equality and equal rights for women, What is the problem with MRA’s ? Who should then represent men’s rights and equality issues? Why do feminist fight, discredit and hate MRA’s so much? Should they not unite and work together in the spirit of gender equality?
Thank you for your time.
I cannot speak to other peoples definition of feminism nor do I desire to be pulled into a deep discussion about a version of it that I don’t share. You need to have that discussion with someone who has that interpretation. I do not believe that men are in a disadvantage as this is neither what I see, nor have personally experienced. The question is – are you making the argument for the sake of the argument or have you experienced at 22? And do you believe that you speak for ALL men making these claims? I can only speak for myself, my experience and what I learn from the many women and men I work with. You should only speak for yourself unless you are an elected or chosen representative. You don’t see me say all women or all men. I cite data. Feminism isn’t the issue. It’s that it has been hijacked as some sort of explanation and reason why some men hate women and why some women hate men. This is the patriarch’s playbook. It has to be someone’s fault. Someone has to be blamed for poisoning good women’s mind who used to be so agreeable. What if times just change and evolved? The rule is simple, if it is not experience I can’t have an argument about it that you seemingly want to push on me. I can’t speak to men hating women, I don’t know any nor am I one. In my work the desired result is equity. I focus not on whether you are right and I am wrong but how can we bring this on one page.
Hi Beate,
You kind of avoided the question. UN spokesperson Emma Watson and most all other feminists say it stands for equity for everyone.
You wrote: “I do not believe that men are disadvantaged as this is neither what I see, nor have personally experienced.” (you are of course female – just saying..lol) So kind of hard to experience that, if you are not a man. 🙂
So in no way are men disadvantaged in ANY manner? No inequities exist for men? Really – that’s your position? There’s the problem BEATE! There’s the insight we have been seeking. Feminism ignores 50% of the population’s inequities. Hence why it’s failing. Almost all men and ~ 87% of the female population disagrees with your statement. Only 13% of women in developed countries now consider themselves feminists.
So in the spirit of enlightenment, I ask kindly that you watch this documentary from ABC. Norah Vincent (female) – went undercover for 18 months to see what it’s like being / living as a man. I think this will maybe give you some further insight, since I assume you don’t want to do the same experiment! 🙂 It’s only 18 mins long, and actually very interesting, and not biased in any way. It’s from 2006 – before MRA’s and gender wars etc, and from a neutral organization (ABC). I’m not trying to prove anything, just expose you to a different insight of what men deal with. Maybe it will allow you to have some more compassion and understanding of the lived male experience. Assuming you even care. (giving you the benefit of the doubt) 🙂
https://youtu.be/Ip7kP_dd6LU
Thank you kindly for engaging this topic.
In a CIVILIZED society, women have the power. Why? Because CIVILIZED men allow it. In the end, women are allowed to exist because men allow it. Im sure that ticks feminists off to no end, but at the end of the day its the very foundation of their existence and is why they are forever unsatisfied. Not all women are angry with this fact, mind you. Just the feminists. And you are correct when you say that men granted women equal rights. Yet here we are still listening to the constant whining of feminists. Its never enough.
I know many women who bought into the whole “career first, family last” nonsense only to learn that they would rather be at home with their children. Oops. Too late. Gotta have two people to pay the bills thanks to the whole “let’s all work to pay taxes” con. And how many women have been casualties to the feminist ideology? Women who would be happy at home taking care of their family? And to hear women complain about having to work AND raise the kids and educate them is maddening. WTF did you think was going to happen? Taking care of children is your role!! if you arent willing to nurture and educate your kids then what use are you to ANYBODY? You wanted to work and then you wanted kids because that dang biological clock (that is the reason human life continues) went off so, yeah, extra work for you. If you didnt want that then thank feminism and quit following their nonsense.
All feminism did was divide the family. Instead of a woman answering to her family she was convinced that true freedom was answering to her work boss. Genius. We ALL answer to someone. Whoever doesnt understand this is a fool and a tool.
I always sigh when women talk about how bad they have had it throughout history. As if men had it so good. Every culture and every generation has a pecking order. There were men and women in every era who had it easier than others with less money or status. And the men and women who didnt have wealth or influence had it bad. It sucked for both. Men were killed in battle or captured as slaves and women were rapped and were sold into slavery as well. Sounds equally horrible to me.
I think its very evident today the damage that feminism has caused to the family structure. Young men have seen their parents get divorced and their fathers have their children ripped out of their lives and want nothing to do with marriage. Men are evolving to adapt to their new environment. Marriage is a VERY risky investment so can you blame a guy for not wanting to marry knowing that statistically he will lose 50% of what is built plus his kids? And with the abundance of promiscuous sex today it makes staying single that much easier. Way to go feminism. Ever heard the saying “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?” And before you get all mad thinking I am equating women to cows (cows actually know their place), please think harder about the meaning.
I fear that society will collapse before the lie that is feminism is truly exposed. Birthrates are low and those being responsible and reproducing to the extent they can support their families are being forced to pay for those who aren’t through social welfare programs. And many of those families are broken as well.
Its truly astounding that previous generations with little to no formal education understood their roles and how important they were to ensuring their existence. It seems like the more “educated” we get the more ignorant we are about such simple things.
So congratulations to all of you feminists out there. The data is in. You are getting what you want and the blame of societal collapse will fall squarely on your not-so-broad shoulders.
If that is not a superiority complex expressed line by line I don’t know what is. One can only wish a person like yourself the best of luck. An ideology as narrow as MGTOW will never give you happiness. Satisfaction perhaps that you got to tell these feminists who you really and what you think. All it creates is this crazy anger. I mean what kind of person actively google searches for women who speak up for women and then unleash your dissatisfaction and anger on them? I have heard it all, doesn’t faze me. It’s like when I am having a bad day and I get a robocall and I am like – perfect, I can vent my frustration at something else on this person. I didn’t do anything to you. I don’t know you. I share my personal experience and help women to cope with what they go through. That is my business. Not yours. I am not even speaking to you or trying to appease or help you or seek your approval. You sought me out. If being this angry telling women off 24/7 works for you – great. My prediction – not a recipe for happiness.
The media companies are drinking champagne while reading these comments.
The reason for this statement is that PERSONALLY i think the people who have the loudest voice (like famous people, tv shows, in social media, websites) are the ones who are perpetuating all these arguments between the sexes because they are benefiting from them (headlines, more fame, money, followers), all they have to do is fuel them with bias messages that don’t seek common ground, most tv shows nowadays say “its okay to demean men and lash out and HATE them” and “its okay to be sexist towards men if you are a woman”.
In Feminism, i think there are feminists and misandrists. Most men know that feminism is about equality for both genders socially, economically etc. but there are still those who use feminism as a movement that aims to put men down and make women superior than everything and everybody else, and the worst part is that these people usually have the loudest voice that reach larger audiences especially young people. So most people who call themselves feminists often demonstrate misandrist behaviours toward men, hence most men including myself experience feminism as movement based on hating men even though i know that this is Not True at all.
But if we were to try and listen to one another with an intent of building something concrete instead of trying to win an argument, things might just be better, but if we continue to go for the win of the argument, we aren’t going anywhere with this.
Excellent comment, thoughtful and to the point. AI measures engagement. Negativity gets way more engagement so it is in their interest to fuel it. Why does my channel come up when you Google feminism? Because I get to stand in as a token middle aged feminist for every man who’s had a crappy divorce or custody battle even though I a pro-man. The nonsense I have to listen to is mind boggling. You are correct it is the projection of a bad experience without any clarifying question that causes so many problems. Awareness is how we change it. The more people are aware the more they will be in control of their behavior. That is how we change.
The issues we face as a society are caused when we look down the wrong rabbit holes for answers.
Dividing us up by gender and mixing up correlation with causation is a key driver to the confusion.
Why we must continue to always see things through variables we have no control over e.g. gender, race I’m not sure.
I’d rather we all worked together to identify specifically what needs changing, based on hard scientific facts with proven outcomes. There is no buy in otherwise, these are serious matters that have serious ramifications and can’t be “explored”.
We must do our history homework and avoid everything the Soviet Union has tried (and failed at) in the past.
What does the Soviet Union has to do with this article? Did you actually read the article or is this one of those copy – paste responses? Men and women are not the same, neither emotionally, physically or mentally. But we are equal.
After having read through this entire thread it has become obvious to me that everyone has, or views the definition of feminism through a slightly different lens. Why would that be unusual? Afterall, BLM has many different iterations, why not feminism? It doesn’t really matter what the Oxford dictionary definition is because we apply our own definition to it based on our experiences with it. There is certainly a distorted view here because I’m willing to wager that among ten different people the definition of the word will be similar but nuanced just slightly. Also, being that the term ‘gender’ is no longer binary the definition becomes even further distorted. So, how do we have a discussion about something that no two people necessarily define the same way, namely feminism. With so many different views is it now only conceptual?
I like your sentiment that the different definitions of feminism creates problems. I’ll ponder on this some more.
At this point it’s obvious that IMHO men should avoid all but the bare minimum of contact with women. The more I learn what women think if men the more I want nothing to do with them .
Things are so out of balance it’s sad. This article was the last straw for me, I’m giving up on women and relationships, I’d rather be celibate then deal with the double standards and hate women express both consciously and subconsciously towards men ..
And Kim, don’t worry, most men absolutely hate the social rules women created that dictate he has to “chase” women at this point I’d rather be burned to death.
Oh, I’m a very liberal guy, you feminists can have everything you want, I’m checking out..
One less man to shit on.
Hi Robert,
I agree with your assessment that everyone has a different version / idea of feminism. That is completely normal for humans to apply their own biases and lived experiences to a topic. We should instead use feminism’s own definition as the standard. Which I believe most people would agree is close or similar to this definition from google:
“At its core, feminism is the belief in full social, economic, and political equality for women. Feminism largely arose in response to Western traditions that restricted the rights of women, but feminist thought has global manifestations and variations.” As you can see – by feminism’s own definition – “belief in full social, economic, and political equality for women”
That’s fine and great, most men including myself fully support that goal. However, what about issues related specifically to men? Should society / feminists completely ignore those inequities? The main issue tends to arise, when feminist organizations impliment policies that purposely or arbitrarily disadvantage or outright hurt men. This is basically the driving force behind the MRA movement and the anti feminist rhetoric.
These are examples of topics that feminist organizations have fought against, and are policies that actually hurt men:
– Paternity fraud. In many states men have to pay child support for their whole lives, even though they have genetic proof they are not the father. Why should men pay for kids that aren’t theirs? The feminists think they should.
– Affirmative action, gender shouldn’t be an issue. You shouldn’t lose a job opportunity because of gender. In the election Affirmative Action lost in California. This has been pushed hard by feminists, including scholarships to college.
– Many feminists believe women shouldn’t be drafted into wars, and actively fight this legislation. The end result of this is more men will die, so women can live. ie: male disposability.
– College rape tribunals which was pushed very hard by 4’th wave feminists. College panels judge sexual assault cases based on a preponderance of evidence (50 +1) instead of beyond reasonable doubt. This is a lower standard of proof than is required in criminal trials. The accused college boys are often not even allowed to know what they are accused of.
https://youtu.be/zlVI7CpUmSU
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/
– The educational system is leaving boys behind because the teachers are mostly female and the different learning methods for boys hasn’t been studied or simply ignored. Girls are promoted as virtuous and moral, and boys are bad etc.. This damages many boys in grade school, destroys their self worth and reinforces negative emotions about themselves. Gender bias is a real thing in grade school, studies have shown female teachers give lower grades to boys.
– Feminist anti male rhetoric runs deep in western countries like UK, US, Australia. Boys and men are always hearing how bad and evil they are. ( like the Gillette commercial, go read the comments on this video ). It cost Gillette 8 Billions dollars in revenue and damaged their brand. The commercial was created by a femminist PR person. Who wants to constantly hear how bad and evil they are? And women are not just as capable of evil behaviour?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0&ab_channel=Gillette
– Domestic violence studies have consistently shown that female on male domestic violence is ~40% of all cases. Yet, none or very few shelters exist for men. Yet feminists fight this tooth and nail? Feminists fight, ignore and skew these statistics. Why? Would you want your son to date the girl below?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/81a8f303-5849-45b8-85a0-e8532b5d948b
Feminists even threatened this woman for speaking the truth about domestic violence. ” Erin Pizzey has been the subject of death threats and boycotts because her experience and research into the issue led her to conclude that most domestic violence is reciprocal, and that women are equally as capable of violence as men are. Pizzey has said that the threats were from militant feminists.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey
Those are just a few examples. Maybe the biggest complaint I have is how hard feminism has fought the men’s rights movement. I don’t necessarily consider myself an MRA, but shouldn’t organizations be allowed to exist that are working to address specific issues related to men? Why do feminists care about an organization trying to help men become better versions of themselves? I know there are some crazy MRA’s, but that is also true about feminists. They have protested at EVERY MRA.
https://youtu.be/zH_ZryBfCtU
You cannot address gender issues, by allowing one side to have a megaphone and silencing the other. What women do not quite understand yet, is that this is just the start for mens equality / rights. On many topics – gynocentrism is just as harmful to men (ie: benefitting women) as the “patriarchy” is in different ways of course. Feminists are learning that men do have a limit.
Here are the leaders of MRA’s conference in Chicago. Do these people seem unreasonable women hating misogynists? They are literally crying because they just want to be heard. Looking forward to your response.
https://youtu.be/K3WsPH3AcTM
Look it is obvious by you having this information handy that you actively seek perceived feminists to proof a point as you can so easily copy and paste a cherry picked list of disadvantages that men face. Instead of fighting me where there is literally nothing to fight perhaps your time should be spent to get into changing the very policies you take offense with. Put your energy where you can actually achieve the change you seem to seek. It is not here.
Obama eschewed the phrase “Radical Islam.”
Islam is not radical. Individual Muslims could be radical, but not the religion.
Individual black men could be violent, but not the race.
Individual men could be toxic, but not masculinity.
It seems your feminism has made you a toxic person when you allow for stereotypes. The phrase “Toxic masculinity” is a stereotype.
Anyone who validates the term “Toxic Masculinity,” is as toxic a person as the one who says “Radical Islam.”
Beate,
Please don’t “gynosplain” to me on how to spend my time. (joke) :). Feel free – I will just blame the “matriarchy”. It’s fun to contextualize everything by gender, and always play the victim. 😛
You are the ideological feminist who claims the ideology stands for equal rights. Why don’t you go fix these issues then! That’s what feminism was supposed to do! I’m not an MRA – but I dislike 4’th wave feminisms and your intellectual dishonesty.
I just research things out of interest. You are actually the first “lucky” feminist that I felt was reasonable enough to engage. And I appreciate that. 🙂 I only have love for you and no hate. I feel the 4’th wave feminism has lost its way, it has a credibility problem. You do realize that feminist papers from Gender Studies Departments don’t stand up to standard academic peer review? Many claims by feminists are based on biased studies, skewed statistics and lies. You are either clueless, or wilfully blind. And I know you won’t watch these links, but maybe someone else will. Or probably any links I sent – I would bet my life on it.
https://youtu.be/AZZNvT1vaJg
https://youtu.be/7Wxc9E7Uuws
https://youtu.be/zlVI7CpUmSU
Projecting – “An automatic process whereby contents of one’s own unconscious are perceived to be in others.”
Projecting is exactly what feminists do. They cherry pick from the “buffet of feminism” and skew stats, studies that benefit women, and ignore the truth about the “wage gap”, domestic violence, on campus rape statistics, physical assaults etc.. The list is long on inequities caused by feminists ideology.
Obviously your business is to assist ONLY female entrepreneurs (i’m assuming) . That in itself is gender discrimination. Why should it matter what gender they have? What percentage of your clients are feminists?
“It’s difficult to get a person to understand something when their salary depends upon them not understanding it. – Upton Sinclair
After this discussion, I now understand why Trump supporters hate Liberals.
You had no interest in understanding anything about why men (and women) despise 4’th wave feminism.
I will leave you with this clip of a man bragging about his male privilege.
https://youtu.be/Z7rpCa7qeqo?t=976
I am lost. I don’t know what your point is. There is literally nothing else I can add to a meaningful conversation without spinning in circles.
My point is very simple and not complex whatsoever. You are avoiding to even acknowledge what I’m saying. I doubt you have even tried to make an effort to understand what I am saying.
4’th wave feminism ONLY cares about women’s issues, and ignores issues facing men. Therein lies the problem.
You are not being intellectually honest when you claim – “I do not believe that men are disadvantaged as this is neither what I see, nor have personally experienced.” Your statement is not even a rational or logical statement. Inequality exists everywhere, with all humans to some extent.
It’s orwellian and hypocritical of 4’th wave feminism to claim they are fighting for equality whilst ignoring male specific issues. Keep in mind how many women care about the men in their lives. And the amount of influence men have with their mothers, sisters, wives, friends and daughters. 4’th wave feminism has a failed long term strategy if they continue to ignore issues that affect 50% of the population while screaming “equality”.
Who do you suggest should address men’s issues then? Since you and the 4’th wave feminists believe they don’t exist?
These are men’s issues, and most people can’t name one. Because they think men have all the rights, they have all the power and privilege. But these issues deserve to be acknowledged, they deserve care, attention, and motivation for solutions. If feminism was truly about equality – they would at a bare minimum acknowledge these issues facing men.
Issues that uniquely or disproportionately affect men (but according to you don’t exist)
– Paternity fraud uniquely affects men
– The United State selective service in the case of a draft uniquely affects men
– Workplace deaths disproportionately affects men (93%)
– War deaths overwhelmingly men
– Suicide overwhelmingly men
– Sentencing disparity
– Life Expectancy
– Child Custory/Child Support
– False rape allegations
– Criminal court bias/Misandry
– Failure to launch
– Boys falling behind in education
– Homelessness
– Veteran’s Issues
– Infant Male Genital Mutilation
– Lack of parental choice once a child is conceived
– Lack of resources for male victims of domestic violence
Of course. I will just get another rambling response from you, that doesn’t address any points or arguments made. Yes, these ARE cherry picked – they are of course male specific issues. I agree with many issues that women deal with, I have no issue acknowledging female issues – why are 4’th wave feminists denying men equality on things that specifically affect them? And why is 4’th wave feminism not fighting to address these inequalities? Since it’s all about “equality”?
I love how you spin this. Now I am being criticised for being knowledgeable and having done my research?
“Look it’s obvious by you having this information handy that you actively seek perceived feminists to prove a point as you can so easily copy and paste a cherry picked list” (absolutely untrue – I have no list – just a good memory).
You are the first feminist I have engaged, and you have reinforced all the negative stereotypes about feminists and about white female priviledge.
Beate “Facts make sense”. Therefore attack the messenger instead of the message. You obviously didn’t look at any of the links. So disingenuous.
How you feel is on you, not me. I can’t make you experience anything other than what you allow it to be. I’ve been very clear and I will say it one more time. I cannot and will not engage in a conversation about an interpretation over feminism that I don’t share. So stop trying to push your thoughts on other people. What you think is on you. There is no middle ground here because you keep telling me that you experience feminism in this incredibly negative way. And you keep telling me how disadvantaged you think men are. You search actively for reasons on why you are right. I don’t believe that men are at a disadvantage. At all. You live your reality because you keep telling yourself you are a victim of feminism. I neither can nor do I want you to convince you or cure you of what you perceive as your problem. The information and facts are all here. You chose to look at the data and statistics and either reject or believe them. It’s on you. I don’t make the facts or create the data, I interpret it.
Having seen how my father suffered when my parents broke up and having seen how my older brother got fleeced in the family court, I am sorry to say that marriage seems to be more and more a raw deal for men, and that modern feminism has very little to do with first wave feminism about basic rights (vote, work, opening bank account). and more with “what women get get out of society at the expense of men”. My previous job application, I got denied due to a quota ruling of some sort that the company had to hire more women. It boiled down to a lesser but still competent female got the job instead of me. That was a tough pill to swallow and I was not supposed to know about it either. Fast forward, I am happy where I work now. I am single and have NO desire for a relationship. I apply the Pence Rule when dealing with women and my career is rocking. My aim is to be financially independent and then travel off and on and looking after my parents. I have been told to “man up” and get married. No thanks! I am fed up with modern feminism in the West, because it does not contribute to a better society. It’s time for women to take off the boxing gloves and become feminine again.
A Different Thought: I know what you mean. After experiencing much male bashing in my own lifetime, I am now convinced that in this day and age there are only two types of women:
1) Those who openly detest men, and
2) Those who PRETEND they don’t.
How is that attitude working out for you? I bet that you have succeeded at creating this reality for yourself. Not what I see, not what I experience, and certainly not my agenda.
I think that men and women are pretty much done with each other. The walls between us are only growing higher. It makes sense for men to go MGTOW, and it makes sense for women to not have anything to do with men.
This is the world we live in now, and I, for one, am totally ok with that.
Both sides talk past each other and the rift just grows wider. Articles like this, that express how it’s all the fault of men, that men need to step up and provide something more (but which women can’t actually define) and that women, although not perfect, can still do no wrong in relation to men, only adds fuel to the fire and makes the gap between the sexes that much harder to traverse.
Men=Bad, Women=Good. We all know this already, even non-feminists. We’ve been hearing it since Dworkin, the tune has never changed.
Allow me to rephrase that for you. YOU are done with women. Your walls against women are growing bigger. You feel it makes sense to go MGTOW. Subsequently the women you meet have no desire to have anything to do with you. And you are okay with that. This is your choice.
I see the exact opposite, of both sides wanting to create more intimacy and deeper connection. As long as you are happy with the choices you make – it’s a self selection that I have zero desire to talk you out of. But you came here to tell me that you think this is happening. Why?
Quite simply, the statistics don’t support what you say you are seeing. You say that you see both sides wanting greater intimacy and a deeper connection. Let me re-phrase that for you. YOU want greater intimacy and a deeper connection. Do you see how your answer does not in any way address my comment. You simply adopt the shaming technique so often adopted by feminists. Don’t address the issue raised, attack the person who raises. Or if you find yourself in a place where you you can’t argue based on facts, argue on how you feel.
You didn’t address an issue. You stated an opinion. Your opinion has context which is that this is what you believe in. I stated it is not what I believe it. As a professional consultant, coach and strategic advisor I hear this day in and day out where organizations are looking for unification. You are on a professional services website that deals with DEI in the workplace. There are studies after studies that are published that showcase that people want to get along and are looking for ideas and programs to do that. If you feel that your personal ideas of not choosing love or companionship again in your personal life can be blamed on feminists. That is simply on you. If an ideology that you outline so vaguely has this much power over you that you adjust your expectations of what you think is available to you – that is on you. That’s not blaming that is fact. You are absolutely correct. This is my website, my idea, my ideology and my platform. I get to chose anyway I want to use it. What I do not do is get involved with disillusioned men who Google the term “feminist” then come here and want to convince me with sappy arguments that the world has wronged them and they give up. You can be MGTOW. Own it. But why do you come to a professional services DEI organization? To do what? To convince me that men are at a disadvantage? To tell me that women like myself are the problem? But I am in a relationship, I am the mistress of my own destiny, I have a great life. And shockingly I have a great man on my side. So what does that tell you about the difference between you and me? If you were my client, I would take you through a confidence building program, make you look at your old programming and change the story of victim hood you tell yourself. What is out there is not the issue. What you think and belief and feed yourself is the issue.
Thank you. I tried to engage you on an adult level, and all you can come up with are personal attacks. But thank you for confirming that you have no argument, so resort to personal attacks. Sappy arguments? Is that the very, very best you can come up with? I acknowledge that this is your website, thoughts etc. But the fact is that, if you put something out there on the web, you have to be prepared for whatever comes back. Like you, I am the (in my case) master of my destiny and that means that I have dealt myself out of the game when it comes to dating, relationships etc. That is my choice. I don’t consider myself a victim in any way, shape or form as you appear to. Why do you consider it so “broken” of me to react this way? Because I have chosen a path which means that I eschew relationships? You know nothing of me, yet choose to believe that, because I have decided as I have that somehow I am a victim and need fixing. I’m sorry, but I just don’t see it that way. Employers are certainly moving down the DEI path as it is mandated by governments seeking easy votes. But DEI coursework amongst corporates is a world away from interpersonal relationships out of the workplace. I have enjoyed our discourse. I wish you and your significant other well. We are just worlds apart on the issue under discussion and neither will change the other’s opinion. I will therefore bid you well.
How does one go about getting this confidence building program? I would like to try that
Hello Tracy,
Glad to hear from you. You can find it at Rocketlaunch.training. I will add you to the list as we are adding a new program called the Unapologetic Value Proposition, how to pitch anything to anyone anytime.
Sadly, men have been vilified by the so-called “fair sex” just for being men for so long now, you can’t be shocked that many men are a little standoffish and dubious about feminism and #metoo. There’s just no doubt that men are pointedly UNWELCOME in the female universe. Think of it like this: If you’ve been arrested and thrown in jail for the last 20 years for a crime you didn’t commit, and every cop you’ve come in contact with in all that time treats you like a lower life form, then out of the blue some cop tells you that he believes you and wants to help you…how quick would you be to trust that cop? It’s the same thing with relating to women now. After being routinely mocked and ridiculed just for being a male in this new world order, many men would now at least question the idea that women aren’t hostile to men. With the man-hating feminazis and #metoo hatemongers screaming from the rooftops about how despicable men are, why should any guy in his right mind now believe that women bear no antipathy to men?
You are 8 times more likely to have a murder conviction overturned than sexual assault. I don’t know how women standing up for themselves to defend themselves against being objectified, harassed or raped could be possible an issue for men. Wouldn’t you want the bad apples to be exposed?
Of course. At the same time, not being hit with an an automatic presumption of guilt just for being a guy shouldn’t be too much to ask, either.
I find myself wondering just how malleable individuals and societies can be. For most of human history we have simply followed an extant template of behavioral expectations. Perhaps most people really aren’t as original- minded as some few are.
Interesting. Most people are not original, they care what other people think because they want to fit in. And when that definition of “fit-in” changes they change. Look at Trump followers, what has become ok to fit-in. The entire idea of cancel culture is based on pointing out other peoples flaws so I appear to fit in.
I have been part of conversations like this pretty much almost since 20 years. That is since I went to college for Undergrad. Where I am from, there was a ‘quota/reservation’ for girls in Tech colleges etc (33%).. to encourage women in tech.. That is, there should be a minimum of 1/3rd students who should be girls in all tech institutions. At that time, it resulted in – most girls who did not get bare minimum qualification in the entrance exam to join the college, got admission. I was told how ’empowerment’ is needed. In reality what happened was – those women who were really oppressed never really benefited from it. Those who did not need any ’empowerment’ – that is: those who were born in pretty modern mindset families who were given all opportunities to educate themselves etc – they got benefited. What is funny is some of those girls still, after all these years complain the same about how they were oppressed. They are in same/higher jobs earn as much or more. Still ‘something’ is always missing. 20 years later.. I still hear the same stuff.. we need more women in Tech. To me, this is where it really goes wrong. Why only Tech or high paying jobs? Why not everywhere, all jobs? At the end of day – these kind of approaches result in even more injustice than being equals.
Feminism or female movement did not alone change the situation of jobs. When you look back several decades ago, most jobs are not as comfortable and convenient as they are now. Also, there were not as many jobs either – industrialization helped. Most jobs needed physical work. And guess who was more suitable to do such work.. Yes, mostly men in those families. It has been more of a nature way of doing things. However, as more and more jobs opened and as those jobs did not need as much physical labor – we started seeing more women in those jobs too, why? – every family wants to earn more. It has been a change as a humanity. It is human nature, not man or woman – to form those norms. For instance, there are some privileges for females that males do not enjoy. That is the result of the same norms. Lack of equality does not exist just with Gender, it is there with everything in this world. In some cases the lack of equality favors women, in some cases it favors men.
Now, I am not saying there has been no suppression to women, heck there has been suppression to women from fellow women too, and the same applies to men as well.. There has been. And there has been racial injustice, regional/religious injustice.. it is a long list. For instance, there are moments as a non-white man, I feel even white women had a privilege that they enjoy – when it comes to job offers or interviews or social acceptance that I do not.. in some places. It is basically humans.. I think the real issue nowadays is coming to the same page of what equality even means. Exploiting situations in the guise of demand for equality has become norm.. and that is also human nature.. not man or woman. How can one even justify.. when a person who was born rich, had all facilities, parents provide for great education, got a great job – still complain they were given raw deal.. My personal opinion, I think we all have to look at big picture and realize those who can exploit and have power, have always been doing such injustice to the weak. We all have to make steps towards that equality. If we keep picking small things and coining words like ‘mansplaining’ etc.. it will never go anywhere. I have had both arrogant men/women do such explaining to me, it yet another human nature of ego. Instead of making any real progress, it will only remain a talking point so that those who can exploit will keep exploiting.
You gave this a lot of thought. I agree that the definition of equality – and even that is now being challenged to be called equity – is loaded. Where I start and you might find this helpful is to recognize the equal does not mean the same, it means the equivalent. If you can lift 100 pounds and let’s say you are 6 foot 175 pounds than what is the equivalent for a woman who weights 120 pounds and is 5.4? If she would lift 100 pounds she would be physically superior. She’d be lifting the same weight but it the same weight is not equal. And because these definitions are so biased as to what job requirements are, how careful we need to be, how the right tone and way to say things has gotten under so much scrutiny – we can’t even have an honest conversation without ridicule. As a white woman who’s ex-husband is black I have been called out for micro aggression against black men because I said that my ex is a pathological liar and alcoholic. Now I described my ex… not black men… So even I am not exempt from the scrutiny. You are correct that if we continue down this road of constantly pointing out that we are being human, flawed and imperfect and disregard the intent but focus on the perception of what I heard – we will remain screwed and without progress.
Your statement on equal vs equivalent is interesting.. especially the job requirement/weight lifting example. But, how do you implement that in a captalism world, where you hire the best possible resource for profit? Isn’t that all the modern system is.. hire the best possible minds, do the best possible work, gain profits etc. There are some jobs where being a woman is advantageous. Doesn’t that work both ways? This is my problem with some of the modern movements of feminism. I see all noise about not having pay in high paying jobs. The reality is you can’t average that way. It is not like pay is based on gender(reverse of paying more because of woman is starting to happen now in some cases), it is about skills, experience, business value add. I do not see any noise about responsibilities, or asking why women presence is not there in all jobs. Take women in tech for instance – reason I bring that up is I am personally impacted in a negative way because of it. Nobody.. I mean nobody is stopping women in America to take those roles for the past several years. Just because at school level many women did not show interest in Tech skills does not mean, few who showed interest get to exploit situation and grow much faster than their male counterparts. Nobody is saying at least last few decades – hey this is a man’s job. I never heard that ever in my entire life. Real equality means, gender/race/religion should not play any role in giving opportunities.
The women and children shall rule over men.
No leadership just authoritarianism, statism, and fascism.
Ahhh, yes …. the quintessential “feminism = equality” bullshit. Yeah, maybe 100 years ago.
Feminism today is nothing of the sort. If you want to empower women through encouragement, then go for it! If you want to empower women by tearing down men, then we have a problem there.
I don’t need to regurgitate everything that has already been said in the comments so I’ll just leave it at this.
Women are less happy than they were 40 years ago. Why? Because you’re taught to hate and compete against men rather than joining into partnership with us.
Feminism claims to be pro-women but they hate everything that exudes femininity. Instead they prefer to push for women to be masculine, while trying to feminize men.
The reality is that Feminism hates femininity.
Western women are wondering “where all the good men have gone”. Well, we’ve checked out of the emotional and psychological abusive relationships that you have all put us through. You don’t respect us. You don’t appreciate us. You don’t love us. So, quite simply, we’re out!
We’re dating and marrying foreign women who appreciate us for our generosity, protection and masculinity.
Fine. Allow me to articulate what women want. Women don’t need providers anymore. Any man who thinks that way is stuck in 1892. Forty percent of women are family providers, making more than their husbands, and we are still underpaid by thirty percent.
Nobody needs a loser who thinks his job is done by getting a job and keeping one. If he plops his ass in front of the television, he is useless. It is not my job to offer emotions. I have emotions and need for support, too. I turned down three marriage proposals due to the following: no sense of intimacy, lousy in bed, insensitive, uncommunicative, incapable of showing emotions, no hobbies, no humour, no charm, no personality. The stuff that matters. I don’t need a lazy man or an emotionless man.
Sports, art, times out with friends! Women need that, too. I have yet to hear of a woman complaining about a man going out alone or with his friends once a week and heading out early for yoga or playing basketball once a week. We want men to have hobbies. It would be better than television. Women want the same things. If men helped out around the house or paid for sitters and cleaners sometimes, women could do those things, too, or go out with them. It is good to continue dating even after marriage. People are supposed to go out.
Your money?! No thanks. Don’t need. I need an equal partner. I need someone to share a mortgage with, not someone to try to get power over me with his income or be suspicious about what he has. I have had some very wealthy boyfriends. I didn’t care about their fancy cars, Scuba diving trips, paintings, villas, motorcycles, or whatever crap they had. I don’t need their money or fancy crap. Don’t buy women. I needed a human being.
What women want is very easy to understand. Just listen to them.
Wouldn’t it be easier and a lot preciser to just say what you want instead of saying what all you don’t want?
And on a personal note, if you would state what you’re offering in exchange, then I would know if at all it raises my interest.
Or were you just trying to prove the authors point? “Women don’t know what they want and if they do, they have difficulties expressing it in a straightforward manner.”
It would mean that you expect someone to operate the same way you do. Women are not asked (virtually ever) – what do you want. It is a skill we have to learn. I don’t think Nadine was “trying” anything. That in itself is a judgement of you not believing that she is in charge of what she says. But that you insinuate she doesn’t know and you need to help her to get clear on that. This is the finite portion that aware men really can support the women in their lives with. When a woman tells you she doesn’t know what she wants, or she hasn’t thought about it, or because she feels bad about it because she wasn’t taught and INSTEAD says what she doesn’t want – don’t judge. Tell her you understand. I teach this, it is very common and men for the most part do not believe this is valid even though we tell them it is. So why would you question that she experiences this the way she doesn?
And to women who complain about being housewives. That is a privilege these days. They are not single mothers with jobs or working mothers. They have no business complaining. The people that feminism is fighting for are working mothers, prostitutes, domestic violence victims, single mothers, and many other exploited groups of people. Feminism was never about men or privileged housewives. They can go stuff it.
Feminism is much worse than Cancer these days that is caused by most women, for which there is no cure at all unfortunately. That is why so many of us men are single today because of this. MGTOW is a lifesaver.
How’s that working out for you? No love, no intimacy, no connection? Thank God you self select so women know which type of man to stay away from.
Feminism is really to blame for so many of us single men today unfortunately, especially the way that women have really changed these days from the past. It has certainly become very risky for many of us men to even start a conversation with a woman that we think would be very nice to meet, and then there are times when they will even Curse at us for no reason at all when we will just say good morning or hello to them. What is that all about anyway when there are many of us serious good men out there really looking for love today? Most women aren’t really nice at all anymore, especially the ones that have no manners and personality at all when it comes to us men. What in the world happened to these very troubled women today that are real men haters now? Very obvious why so many of us men are still single today, when it would had been much easier meeting a good woman in the old days with no problem at all either.
LOL – the good old days? Well we are not living in a cave anymore. Time to get with the program don’t you think? You want to be single – be single. If you want to be in a relationship you need to learn how to be in one.
While there is a multitude of reasons behind why men are single, here’s just one of the many, which hopefully can evoke some empathy in you, and maybe make you think about how you approach a women you are interested in getting to know.
In essence Gary, our dating culture is f’ed up, we teach men to be aggressive and women to be submissive. (take a second to think about how men perceive a women who approaches men at a bar, she’s often tarnished as a promiscuous women) This creates an environment where men often purposefully or erroneously ignore queues that say “I’m not interested in an intimate way” as “she’s just playing hard to get”. So rather than providing men with an opportunity to get their foot in the door by saying hello back and run the risk of being sexually harassed or worse, they don’t engage to begin with. I’ve had friends tell me they put headphones in simply to have an excuse to not hear a man and risk them getting angry or aggressive.
I blamed women for being single to, until I did a little introspection and figured out I was the common denominator. Trust me, the quicker you can drop your ego the easier life gets!
That is a very powerful statement. I keep saying this again and again. For women it is not working. For men it is not working. So why argue about who is right – it’s not working. Why not establish a new parameter? And I guarantee that the moment you stop blaming the other side (on whether that is men or women) and take 100% responsibility your life will be changing and you have a much greater chance to attract the right person.
To Beate Chelette, Why are women Cursing at many of us men for no reason at all? And i know other friends that had the very same thing happened to them as well. It is the women today that are really too blame why so many of us good single men can’t find love today. It is not our fault that there are so many very mentally ill women everywhere these days. Why do you think our family members were very lucky when they found love in those days since most women were the very complete opposite of today, as well as real ladies too. Sure our family members were very lucky back then since it wasn’t all about money in those days, and both men and women hardly had any money since they were struggling just to make ends meat to get by. Now even i will admit that most women today can really make it on their own since they have their careers, and are very independent since they really don’t need a man anymore. Years ago, women depended on a man since they really couldn’t make it on their own. Oh by the way, there are many of us good single men really looking for a good woman to settle down with. It is the women that don’t really want us at all unfortunately, especially the way they’re acting with us these days. Many of us unfortunately were born in the Wrong Era, and had we been born in the past which we very easily would had been all settled down with no problem.
Women do say what they want. There is no excuse for not being emotionless. You cannot have a successful relationship without expressing emotion. As well, very few women think a man’s work is more important than their own. Women work and provide as well. They do most of the work at home. They make thirty percent less. Holding onto an old script that was tossed out in the 1960s is stupid and irrelevent. It is not that hard to accept that couples pay bills together and nobody gets a standing ovation for doing what they are supposed to do.
I have never met a woman who hated a man for wanting time to himself or playing sports. And few complain about wanting more money. They complain about specific things and the men refuse to listen. There are very few women who can’t make up their mind, are perfectionists, or demand more and more.
And the men who married those women, trying to impress them with goals and money, well, they made a choice. I refused several narcissistic men when I was younger and would never break my back to please a man. Men should not be doing that, but they chose to be there. And nobody should resent a woman for doing a job. Men have always received the jobs. They have no business questioning why women get jobs. What they are saying is that if two people, male and female, qualify for a job, it must go to a man, or it is wrong. Actually if it went to men, it would be wrong. They are engaging in discrimination.
In many countries, men are still conscripted into the army whereas women can join voluntarily. Let me reverse the for a moment. In the West, is there ANY law that a woman has to follow, a man does NOT have to follow? Signed, A different thought who doesn’t intend to get married.
Women had to sue to be allowed in the military. You really should do some research before you speak.
cant believe its still going on, lol
You are telling me? The just love this conversation where a man is the unsuspecting victim of an evil woman.
I have been married for 10 years and i am happy. This division is not good for society.
But i have to say, of my 5 closest male friends, all aged between 38-42. Three of them have gone MGTOW in the last 2 years .
There has to be reasons for this… I dont agree with MGTOW but it seems to be trending in society, the fact i even know what it means and im 42 is a problem.
Interesting article. I do like the suggestions for compassion and patience at the end. The world could use a lot more of that. Reading some of the comments, I definitely think there’s a bit of projection going on from some of the readers. As for your stated view of feminism, I completely agree. It’s about equality between the sexes, equal rights, freedoms, and opportunities. I haven’t read any other of your articles, but I definitely will give them a look after this one. With that said, I am quite curious about your view on the role of men and women in and outside of the workplace. I realize that I may inadvertently be inciting some sort of controversy by asking, but I think it would help to perhaps advance the discussions beyond the simple back and forth projections that often come with the territory.
A voice of reason in an ocean of anger. What a reprieve. In a relationship there can be only one man and only one woman. In mine I am the woman and my man is an alpha. There is no conflict in my view of balance. I am an equal partner. I can make decisions, I have my own money, I am independent. But I chose to be with this man and in this relationship, and I trust him so I don’t have to make all the decisions on my own. I give the orders in my business but not at home. The key to leading in your own life is always situational. Did this answer you question?
Why isn’t feminism considered as a conspiracy theorism ?
Because that is uneducated, dumb and ignorant. Just shows who you are.
Women get pregnant Men don’t, so we aren’t equal we aren’t the same
Men can build muscles Women don’t(unless they get injected with male hormones’ ” testosterone”) , so we aren’t equal we aren’t the same
we have different physical appearance we have different brains
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html
we even have different voices, every thing about us is different
and that doesn’t mean that some gender is better than the other it’s just mean we are different and each got his own role in life,
and if we aren’t meant to have roles then whom or whatever made us could have just made us like clown fish or just not different.
and the fact that feminists think that men are the ones who forced these roles is just insane we were all born like this how can we control such a thing?
and if you want our roles you can have them have fun but don’t force yours on us we don’t want them